GENS B1 AND B2 FINAL STANDINGS

[Comeback_King]

I already can't wait for next year's classic league even though I haven't played one playoff game yet. I had a lot of fun. I joined in '06 and kept putting it off because I didn't know much about computers. I'm glad I tackled it this year.

I already have a suggestion for next year's Gens B brackets. It seemed to me that we got a lot of noobs this time around, myself included, who wanted to play online. And understandably, the guys who run the league didn't know our asses from a hole in the ground so lumped us up in B to fight it out. And it worked, we were able to distinguish the slackers from the players and their skill level also. We had guys who only lasted a little while. Well now we have things sorted out. And I think it's very important to keep two B divisions or a C division, whatever, because it gives players a goal to achieve. I don't know about you guys in B, but one day I would like to be in A. But that's not now, or next year. Look at RWD, I think he's played 3 years in B and got the call for A this year. He should move up in my opinion for next year. Guys in B2 or C will continue to improve to be in B1 or B. Depends if you want A B C division or A B1 B2.

If you look at the standings now for both B1 and B2, take the top 4 guys from each and those guys should become B1. With the exception of RWD who should be in A and place orangeblack in his place. Now, I don't want to get flamed again. I'm admitting I haven't played everybody in B1 division so I don't know personally everyone's skill level. I'm just going off stats. I think you will have a damn good competitive B1 division that I'm looking forward to next year. Also, maybe we might even give the A guys something to think about in the years to come, at least make some of them look over their shoulder once in awhile. I think they're getting too confident up there.

Now for the B2 or C guys. These guys are also very important. They are '94's future. We can't ignore them. A lot of them joined the website at the last minute, or haven't touched the game in years, but for some it will be like riding a bike. They also have B1 division to set their sights on and keep the guys like us looking over our shoulder.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Comeback_King

[kingraph]

I was thinking about this for a while too. I'm sure determining the mix between really good (weak A, good B ) players and newbies is difficult. I can see the reason for trying to group players by skill level, but a little mix is beneficial too. For example, the bottom rung of "A" players and the top rung of "B" players seem to be at the same level (depending on how you categorize, I've played both). They will do well in B, but not so well in A. However, and I think you'll agree, playing against "A" caliber players is the best way to learn and grow. I'm sure the same is true for lower-ranked B players who play the best in B.

It seems to me, a new person who joined this classic season, that the Spring'10 season was best organized by skill level. It had the A B C divisions and that makes sense. There's definitely an "elite" level of players out there (A) who will beat any good B player consistently, those who are really good ( B ) players who can occasionally win an A. And the newbie level of C players and other players who can't improve in B. Looking at the standings, the player divisions seem correct. Most of you A leaguers all know each others' skill level at this point and would agree with the divisions (with the occasional gripe).

As someone who took over Winnipeg in the middle of the season for the A division this year, I got to play against a bunch of A players (as well as exhibitions) and I learned the most from playing people better than me. (in my defense, I also managed to win a few games). Now that I'm hooked on '94 again, my goal, as is Comeback's and all other '94 addicts, is to get into that A league and compete with the best of them! However, the only way to get better is to play the best.

At the end of the day, I don't know what is best -- skill parity or mixing it up. Pros and Cons for both.

Either way, major kudos to Chaos and Halifax for organizing this league. It's not easy, and you guys do a great job. Simply said, this is f'in awesome. I'll be back next season for sure.

Edited May 4, 2011 by kingraph

[Comeback_King]

yeah, you are right. The best way to get better is to play people better than you. Same holds true with real hockey and basically everything. Myself, personally, I would feel one more year in the minors would do me good before I get called up like Adam Burish. Or knocked out for that matter. All the while I'll try to exhib. against guys who are in A to get better. I think it's good for both players. High B players get better while A players can practice their smack down. But we'll see. We'll see who's even interested next year.

[LA Robbie]

Hey Guys,

I agree it's been a really well organised league. Great fun & i'll definitely be coming back for more in the future. No doubt about it!

For what it's worth, this is my take on the coach groupings, and in my opinion doing it this way would result in a lot less drop-outs during the season.

I actually feel that A,B,C would be the best way to do it, with promotions and relegations. We went through so many coaches in B2 over the course of the season, and I do believe a factor is that the top 3 guys in one conference are so much better than everyone else, but also had 3 of the best teams too. For the guys who weren't really at a competitive level it must have been very disheartening getting smashed by the top guys and feeling like they were so far off the pace.

It was my first season. I'd never used manual goalie before so at the start of the season my goal was purely to learn that and to feel like I was reaching a good level again by the end (I count myself as a half decent player, but hadn't played regularly for years!). I managed to qualify for the B2 playoffs, so for me i've exceeded what my goal was, so i'm dead happy, but at the same time I know i've got no chance of winning it, and that's a bit of a downer.

I agree playing better players gets you better - Playing lots of exhibitions against Comeback, Wags, Danlizhot etc has helped me get my game up to speed no end, but i'd also liked to have thought I had a chance against anybody, which isn't the case. Comeback, Smozoma & Donnybrook are far ahead of anyone else in B2, and also have the strongest teams, so it's like a double-whammy.

If next season I was in with some guys who were around the same level, some guys who were a touch better and some guys who were a touch weaker i'd feel like I had a shot at winning it, even if I wasn't the favourite. I'd be motivated by a desire to reach the later stages of the playoffs, and push my case to be put up to the next level the following season. The weaker guys that lost most of their games would obviously be more competitive too, and so perhaps they wouldn't drop out so fast - They'd be trying to make the playoffs perhaps rather than knowing they're in for a beating most games, as is the case right now.

I can play exhibitions against top players to help improve my game, but surely in a competitive situation you want to be just that - competitive.

English soccer has 4 main divisions: The Premier League, The Championship, League 1 and League 2. Every season the worst teams in the Premier League move down to the Championship and the best teams from the Championship move up to the Premier League and so on. During pre-seasons many lower league teams will play friendly matches against higher league teams to prepare for their seasons.

It's a system designed to stop mismatches and make sure everyone's at their level - The guys who has Pittsburgh, Vancouver & Toronto at the start of the B2 season were losing most games, because they're inexperienced players and a game for them against Comeback as Chicago, Smozoma as Montreal or Donnybrook as Detroit was a total mismatch. They never had a hope of getting any points because of the relative skill levels of the different players, so where's the motivation for them?!

Like I said, playing better players definitely helps you improve, no doubt, but in a league a mismatch does no-one any good - The inexperienced guy getting beat up on, or the more advanced player who's not getting tested.

That's my view for what it's worth anyway. I'd prefer to see A,B,C so there's more of a clear pathway to progress. If I can finished as one of the top 4 in GENS C, maybe the following season I can get moved up and test myself at a higher level against the likes of Comeback, Donnybrook etc. Much better than the situation I had this season of staring at mid-table mediocrity and knowing that realistically at playoff spot was the best I could hope for due to the far more advanced level of the top guys in B2.

[HABS]

I like A/B/C

divisions

but there are def some even smaller segments which I think could be divided up somehow.

giving RWD Chi in B1 was a recipe for dominating season, hes an A player for sure now.

Good points you guys are making, having a shot to win it all is huge unless your simply wanna play the better opps to get better.

[smozoma]

I felt bad having Montreal in a B+C mixed league (B2), since I could possibly be considered an A coach (I asked for B because I never made the playoffs in A). I forget the exact reasoning behind having B1/B2 instead of B/C, but it made sense when it was explained to me. Just bad luck that one conference in B2 got stacked with good teams that had good coaches.

Classic will always have some balance problems, but it's still fun and great that so many players join it.

To some extent my IIHF-style ratings can be used to arrange people: http://forum.nhl94.com/index.php?/topic/11874-classic-iihf-style-rankings.

Perhaps a short pre-season tournament could help sort the new players into B and C level (there are always a couple new players who completely dominate in C).

[halifax]

Trying to find the perfect system is always a challenge every season. But there will never be a perfect system. There will never be a perfect league format.

The first reason is that we don't restrict the amount of coaches that are allowed to play and we prefer not to restrict the amount that enters because we want everyone to be able to play. Evan started it that way and I think, for the most part, every season has remained that way.

The second reason is that the varying skill level of plays changes from season to season (and even during the season with all of the replacement changes).

It's easy to say, let's have an A, B and C. But what if we have 70 gens players next season? What if we have 30? What will the mix up look like in terms of skill level?

Chaos and I look at every season differently. We try and divide the league evenly and set it up in a way that we feel makes sense.

If we had a C league this season, we would've put all the rookies there as we have done in the past. Comeback king and kinggraph would've blown everyone out of the water...and in the B league, we would've had the same mismatches that occurred because we would've put all the vets in that league, both strong and weak. Mismatches would've occured regardless. It has always happened and always will happen. It's unavoidable. Guys who love the game will stay regardless of their record, guys who sort of like the game, may or may not stay.

I liked the way we had this league set up. By having B1 and B2, we were able to have the new coaches like comeback king and kinggraph in the B playoffs(where they should be) and others coaches in the C playoffs where they should be. LA Robbie came into the league as a replacement. He had the weakest record of all the teams heading into the playoffs...so I can understand the frustration. In hindsight, maybe a quick fix would've been to swap onetimer and la robbie in playoffs. onetimer I think would've preferred to be in GENS B playoffs and vice versa for LA robbie playing in GENS C. who knows...just a thought...but this isn't really the focus of my overall point.

In SNES, we had the same format as GENS B and rookies like cjgarnet, the90jacket, stheds2000 and szafer1980 all were able to play in the A playoffs when they otherwise would not have gotten to, but the A playoffs was where they should've been because they are good players. Having them in a B league would've been a waste.

It makes it easier for us to find replacements when there's more options. In other words, If we have an A, B and C then I can only put new coach replacements in the C league...but what if the B league needs three guys replaced and the C league does not need any and I have three noobs on the list waiting to play? Then I'm stuck. I have to pull the three best players from the C league(they are now playing in two leagues) and the other three guys on the wait list continue to sit on the fence. That makes no sense to me. Same goes for SNES as well.

I'm not convinced that having A,B,C leagues for GENS is the answer. I do see the benefit of having an A and two B leagues (and then setting up and A, B and C playoffs) like we did this year.

But really, each year is different and each year the format will change. It has to, because the numbers and skill of players change each season.

I really do love you guys. Thanks for the suggestions.

[Comeback_King]

Trying to find the perfect system is always a challenge every season. But there will never be a perfect system. There will never be a perfect league format.

you know what we can do? Something as simple as when you register, along with the other info have have to type in, put a simple question in there also like, "How would you rate your skill level?" A B or C

It's not foolproof obviously, but maybe it can steer you guys in the right direction. And a quick test game for the new guys against selected players like RWD, can also relay more info on what league these guys should be plugged into. Unless of course, the person purposely plays like s**t in the test game.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Comeback_King

[kingraph]

you know what we can do? Something as simple as when you register, along with the other info have have to type in, put a simple question in there also like, "How would you rate your skill level?" A B or C

I would think the majority of noobs who join would consider themselves A, or B at worst. It's not until you get RAPON by some A leaguer that you realize you've got some catching up to do.

Thanks again Halifax (and Evan and all moderators!) -- we know you're doing a great job and appreciate all the thought and work you put in!

[smozoma]

It makes it easier for us to find replacements when there's more options. In other words, If we have an A, B and C then I can only put new coach replacements in the C league...but what if the B league needs three guys replaced and the C league does not need any and I have three noobs on the list waiting to play? Then I'm stuck. I have to pull the three best players from the C league(they are now playing in two leagues) and the other three guys on the wait list continue to sit on the fence. That makes no sense to me. Same goes for SNES as well.

This is a very good point. in the past, we've often ended up with coaches playing in multiple leagues to fill in ("he's doing well in C, let's give him this available in B since he can handle it")