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GDL XI - Trade Rules


IceStorm70

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Great question.

I know if you click on the player within the site it shows his last 4-5 seasons & playoff stats and his ratings.

However, it does not show ADP. Maybe that could be edited into a player's cards.

Also, there is a site that is used during the drafts that lists all the previous drafts and the current draft pool. However, this site is not always up. I know because when my buddies & I were doing our own draft last year amongst ourselves, and were using the site as a guide, it went down middle of our draft, after the GDL draft ended :(

Not sure what that site even is now, or if it can be put up now, left up, etc.

http://www.nflpickempool.net/GDLDraft/DraftedPlayers.php?Sort=OvR

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Thanks Plabax. I'll bookmark that f&cker :)

Yeah, I was about to pour through some trades. Some coaches hate getting called out on the forums though.

I was looking at Icestorm's team and looking for the abuse.

Fedorov, early Round 2 (#26), Emerson Round 2 (#39), Hull Round 3 (#58) for the forwards.

Defense was a late Round 5 & Round 7. Goalie (Hextall) end of Round 3.

So, no Round 1, 2 Round 2's, 2 Round 3 and a Round 5 & 7.

I don't see it.

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Thanks Plabax. I'll bookmark that f&cker :)

Yeah, I was about to pour through some trades. Some coaches hate getting called out on the forums though.

I was looking at Icestorm's team and looking for the abuse.

Fedorov, early Round 2 (#26), Emerson Round 2 (#39), Hull Round 3 (#58) for the forwards.

Defense was a late Round 5 & Round 7. Goalie (Hextall) end of Round 3.

So, no Round 1, 2 Round 2's, 2 Round 3 and a Round 5 & 7.

I don't see it.

I said abuse was the trade example you posted.. Not Icestorm getting Hull lol. I'm afraid to talk about GDL X trades because I made the worst ones

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Looking at Raph's trades now. This looks really bad.

Russ Courtnall #16, 1st Round

Don Sweeney #21, 1st Round

Tomas Sandstrom #38, 2nd Round

Nicklas Lidstrom #61, 3rd Round

Terreri #77, 4th Round

Semak #134 6th Round


And Cam Neely Round 7 on the bench.

Dude, how the f&ck did you lose any games??

Oh wait, you played me :) Seriously, that's a good reason to put some trade cap rules in place.

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Plabax's Example:

Draft Positions (GDL 10, 9, 8, 7)

Joe Juneau - 24 26 29 43 - ADP of 30.5

Benoit Hogue - 35 53 40 41 ADP of 42.5

Apparently 3 out of 4 times coaches thought Juneau better than Hogue. By an average of 12 draft spots.

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Plabax's Example:

Draft Positions (GDL 10, 9, 8, 7)

Joe Juneau - 24 26 29 43 - ADP of 30.5

Benoit Hogue - 35 53 40 41 ADP of 42.5

Apparently 3 out of 4 times coaches thought Juneau better than Hogue. By an average of 12 draft spots.

Yes because coaches see that he is 5 weight and think that he is automatically better. It's just like how all the coaches automatically think Sandstrom sucks but they have never used him.

Please guys my 1st pick was Joe Juneau in GDL X, he cannot produce good numbers lol he's just not good enough for a first rounder.

Edited by PlabaxV2
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Carse would never use sandstorm and carse is one of top 5 coaches.

Carse is a deker not a one timer. Sandstorm does not fit his style of play. Hence, Juneau worth more to carse as he's a better deker and checker.

You can insert many coaches Ned and the same would apply.

Does it mean of they took the time to learn how to play as a one timer coach they could handle sandstorm? Sure. Does everyone want to step outside their comfort zone and learn a new player while risking a season of competitiveness? Probably not.

Please end this debate, were all different and that's fine.

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Carse would never use sandstorm and carse is one of top 5 coaches.

Carse is a deker not a one timer. Sandstorm does not fit his style of play. Hence, Juneau worth more to carse as he's a better deker and checker.

You can insert many coaches Ned and the same would apply.

Does it mean of they took the time to learn how to play as a one timer coach they could handle sandstorm? Sure. Does everyone want to step outside their comfort zone and learn a new player while risking a season of competitiveness? Probably not.

Please end this debate, were all different and that's fine.

So I guess why the ADP examples we used are from Zalex (One-timer), TomKabs (traded away), Icestorm (traded away) and from someone with experience with him who is one of the best dekers around.. I am here to say that he is worse than Sandstrom. Sandstrom does not fit my style of play yet he's still worth more to me.

You're bringing up a bunch of people with no experience lol your points are actually pretty bad. It also doesn't take much to spam one-timers with Sandstrom lol.. You don't have to "learn" how to do it man just stop with your bullshit

Edited by PlabaxV2
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I wish I could understand anything you guys are saying haha. My "strategy" is to draft the best player left when it is my turn pick. I am looking to draft a balanced team that will compete and hopefully compete well. Someone please help me and tell me if this is the wrong thing to do because this is my first draft in a large official league

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A balanced team is a good idea. Think about your favorite classic teams and what makes them your favorite. Identify similar types of players that fit the mold of each of that teams players. Target them in the draft and thru trades.

Don't wait too long on a a goalie unless you're confident you can handle a Hrudey or Beaupre. 4th round is latest to wait.

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Also, like Ice has told me, and had become evident to me.. Balance your team. A shooter, a bugger and a good player is an example of a balanced team. My plans however for balancing are going to be different from most so I won't suggest what I plan to do..

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First thing:

You guys have been using the formula wrong. You are supposed to use the RATIO, not the difference, between the formula values. For example, here is a decent trade from Blitz:

Pavel Bure (#6) 62.50

Mike Richter (#85) 10.53

TOTAL 73.03

FOR

Dino Ciccarelli (#17) 37.04

Curtis Joseph (#49) 16.95

TOTAL 53.99

Ratio: 73.03/53.99 = 1.353

The ratio is 1.353, which is less than 1.5, so it's probably a decent trade.

There are cases where I'm not entirely happy with the result. You can trade #22 & #118 for #38 & #110, and the ratio is 1.339. (Effectively R.Courtnall for J.Carson, with a meaningless exchange of defensemen).

The formula doesn't automatically tell you if a trade is fair, but it gives a strong indication if a trade is unfair.

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Plabax, you need to understand that your opinion of players is not gospel, not their 100% true value.

Also, trades should not be based on who the coach getting the player is, or who else that coach has on his team.

ADP over several seasons is an effective way of objectively figuring out roughly how valuable a player is. (BTW I suggest 5+ season instead of 3, and I also suggest eliminating the highest and lowest value, to get rid of anomalies. Also you should include the current year's draft position in ADP for trading, although that complicates things).

I don't think players can be very underrated by ADP because there are many moments a player could be selected, so the probability of a player being drafted well after his true value is low. However, I DO think players can easily be OVERRATED if they are consistently drafted early by bad coaches (Bourque for example). IE it takes one bad decision to draft a player too early in a draft, but many bad decisions for a player to be drafted late. So that is one reason it's important when calculating ADP to remove the highest position that player was drafted, to help counter the effect of bad coaches on ADPs.

As Chaos pointed out, Kontos was the top scoring player in Blitz 1 (Klima 2nd). I'll add that Nieuwendyk was top in Blitz 5. Whoever is the center of a great coach will rack up the points, because that's how NHL'94 works. You compared Sandstrom and Ciccarelli. They are nowhere near the same caliber players. Cicc gives you defense and rushing ability. Sandstrom is much more limited, which is why he goes so late. Lots of people have the chance to take him, but pass on him, because he's one-dimensional.

ADPs for players you've mentioned, from seasons 3-8 of GDL:

Lemieux 19.5.

Lebeau 35.8. (so you saying that Lebeau is rated higher than Lemieux is wrong)

Sandstrom 28.0. (He was NOT the best player in GDLX. He was the best used, along with R.Courtnall, a great combination).

Kovalenko 34.0. (Kovalenko is an elite defender, for those who want that. Top 150 player?? That's Semak and Janney territory.)

Dino Ciccarelli 9.0. (WAY better than Sandstrom, so much more versatile)

Tikkanen 55 (3.7, not 4th rounder typically)

Juneau's ADP is 39. Of your list of 16 players you consider better than Juneau, 8 of them have ADPs better than him.

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The reason using ADPs and a trade formula is important is it gives those in the position to veto a trade an objective way to see if their decision is their own opinion, or if it's backed up by history. It's just information to help out, not to dictate the decision.

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A spreadsheet should be made to simplify looking up ADPs and trade values and doing the comparison. Or a webpage could be made fairly easily.

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It's a little more than opinion, where is the line?? Some stats are more important than weight, and the guys I listed are all better than Juneau in what matters more.

I think I know the reason though : C check (Body Checking)

People have the mentality that because players cannot body check and they are checked too easily, they are useless. Weight does not really matter as much because maybe 80% of the time you are body checked, you could have been poke checked too.

The thing is, Poke check works on everybody and everyone can do it the same. However.. a 5 or higher in Stick Handling will allow you to sometimes toddle during a Poke or Body check, which is great.

And there is another stat that will allow you to just shake off a check like you were too light for it, does anybody know this stat? Maybe it's players >80OVR.

The light guys tend to have bad stats, so they are all easy to check. They aren't quick and they can't stickhandle.

Now, Bourque is not OVERRATED, he is a 99 OVR, which means he has great stats in the important categories. So being heavy doesn't take away much. Like Icestorm said, most coaches dont value the players correctly so it's easy to take advantage of them. People who pick Bourque so low know it's a steal IMO.

it doesn't matter how light your players are.. Your defense will still be the same, your offense will be worse unless you pick up some skilled guys. It is good to have a bugger, but not for defensive cases. They don't really do much for you on defense in the long run.

The key to using weight is to abuse those who don't understand it correctly. I play exis with Houly all the time. Whenever he uses a 5 wgter D, I use a 6 wgt forward. Houly thinks that because his defense is lighter he can C check me, but he really can't :D

Same with Carse in GDL X, he tried and tried and tried and tried to check Juneau with Gretzky but it never worked. This trick is golden, it gives you power plays and puts their buggers out of the game for two minutes and this is exactly why the line needs to be drawn, it's easier to beat a C-check prophet than it is any other style of defense.

It's OK to draft a bugger like Kovalenko, but second round is pushing it.

About the formula, now it's sexy. swos told me it was ratio but I called him crazy because Ice said it was DIFFERENCE. I believe it now and should have believed it then because Icestorm is not the brightest guy.

I still don't like ADP because we all haven't figured out who is good and who is bad yet, some say that Bourque and Coffey will be picked 1-2 rounds earlier now. Who knows? The past seasons have had. Juneau as a late 1st/ early 2nd, we still need some improvement before we can use something like ADP. Like an official formula that determines a player's ranking.

I agree about the trades where it doesn't matter who gets what, because if the trades are handled correctly then that won't be an issue.

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Tip: in your form, use method="GET" , not method="POST". GET will put the variables in the address so people can easily share links to different seasons. POST is supposed to be used for submitting data, not GETting data.
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About the formula, now it's sexy. swos told me it was ratio but I called him crazy because Ice said it was DIFFERENCE. I believe it now and should have believed it then because Icestorm is not the brightest guy.

I still don't like ADP because we all haven't figured out who is good and who is bad yet, some say that Bourque and Coffey will be picked 1-2 rounds earlier now. Who knows? The past seasons have had. Juneau as a late 1st/ early 2nd, we still need some improvement before we can use something like ADP. Like an official formula that determines a player's ranking.

I agree about the trades where it doesn't matter who gets what, because if the trades are handled correctly then that won't be an issue.

No need to denigrate Ice. You didn't figure it out either.

The funny thing about all this is that ADP is AGREEING with much of what you say. Bourque's ADP from season 3-8 was 20! Coffey, 62 (2.14). They're not going a whole round or two earlier than that. Half those guys you listed have a better ADP than Juneau.

And light players are definitely quicker than fatter players of the same Spd. They accelerate and change direction faster. This is good on defense. The C check has better range and requires less accuracy than the B check so is often faster. Plus those times you just plow through a guy with a C check, stealing the puck and getting a huge head start on the counter-attack.. Plus it sounds like you were changing your lines based on the fact your opponent had a light player (swapping in a 6 wgt guy to counter a 5 wgt), so that sounds like the light player was useful for both of you (plus a lot of people know you need a -2 on weight to have a good chance of knocking the guy down). A more agile (due to weight) player can avoid being checked, C or B, just by not being where the check is or keeping out of range better, dipsey-doodling.

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Thanks Smo, but I'm not offended by anything a teenager says.

Lol i was actually a math major in college. Reading comprehension skills not necessarily my strong point. I blame it on ADD due to twitter. If its more then a couple sentences i move on.

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C check also good for knocking opponents down without the puck. You can't really B check them as you are likely to switch to the player closest to puck.

For example, if someone is dancing around with Russ to feed Sandstrom for a one-timer, knocking Sandstrom down eliminates that option for a few seconds allowing you to be more aggressive on Russ.

Or if your opponent starts a pass-happy attack, knocking down guys away from the puck disrupts that nicely.

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C check also good for knocking opponents down without the puck. You can't really B check them as you are likely to switch to the player closest to puck.

For example, if someone is dancing around with Russ to feed Sandstrom for a one-timer, knocking Sandstrom down eliminates that option for a few seconds allowing you to be more aggressive on Russ.

Or if your opponent starts a pass-happy attack, knocking down guys away from the puck disrupts that nicely.

Great point, tyats exactly what i like to do when someone tries the rebound shot on my goalie, forget about getting the rebound make sure the shooter gets knocked down. Pretty effective defense for that shot.

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No need to denigrate Ice. You didn't figure it out either.

The funny thing about all this is that ADP is AGREEING with much of what you say. Bourque's ADP from season 3-8 was 20! Coffey, 62 (2.14). They're not going a whole round or two earlier than that. Half those guys you listed have a better ADP than Juneau.

And light players are definitely quicker than fatter players of the same Spd. They accelerate and change direction faster. This is good on defense. The C check has better range and requires less accuracy than the B check so is often faster. Plus those times you just plow through a guy with a C check, stealing the puck and getting a huge head start on the counter-attack.. Plus it sounds like you were changing your lines based on the fact your opponent had a light player (swapping in a 6 wgt guy to counter a 5 wgt), so that sounds like the light player was useful for both of you (plus a lot of people know you need a -2 on weight to have a good chance of knocking the guy down). A more agile (due to weight) player can avoid being checked, C or B, just by not being where the check is or keeping out of range better, dipsey-doodling.

I didn't figure it out because the commissioner clearly TOLD me it was the difference. If had to guess (obviously I didn't) then I probably would have figured out that it was the ratio.

Math major in college, reading comprehension not your strong point. Ty for showing just how smart you can be sometimes Marasco.

I don't know about this, because we said ADP from last 3 seasons, and if I'm correct I would believe the last 3 seasons to be 10,9 and 8.

Most of the winners in GDL are NOT C-check prophets, the toughest challenges clearly come from those who do not care to C check. So anyone smart would look after the winners (swos*2,kgman*2 (to an extent), Freydey,TomKabs) and not the runner-ups (Carse)

Now about the quickness thing.. I have a test with a player with two players, one with 7 weight and the other with 1 weight. They are both the same speed and they both skate the exact same, despite one of the players having a 6 in agility and the other one having a 1 in agility.

You see again, "dipsey-doodling" is not 100% weight.. Lemieux is more agile than Fedorov, but he is heavier. Lemieux AND Sandstrom are more agile than Bondra, but they are heavier. Lemieux is more agile than... [insert every single light player in NHL '94 picked in Round 2 and later]

Am I supposed to be convinced that all the responses are from the guys that never win? Ice talking about C checking but failed to make noise in GENS A with BOS, the best C checking team in the game loololol so convincing Marasco!

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I didn't figure it out because the commissioner clearly TOLD me it was the difference. If had to guess (obviously I didn't) then I probably would have figured out that it was the ratio.

Math major in college, reading comprehension not your strong point. Ty for showing just how smart you can be sometimes Marasco.

I don't know about this, because we said ADP from last 3 seasons, and if I'm correct I would believe the last 3 seasons to be 10,9 and 8.

Most of the winners in GDL are NOT C-check prophets, the toughest challenges clearly come from those who do not care to C check. So anyone smart would look after the winners (swos*2,kgman*2 (to an extent), Freydey,TomKabs) and not the runner-ups (Carse)

Now about the quickness thing.. I have a test with a player with two players, one with 7 weight and the other with 1 weight. They are both the same speed and they both skate the exact same, despite one of the players having a 6 in agility and the other one having a 1 in agility.

You see again, "dipsey-doodling" is not 100% weight.. Lemieux is more agile than Fedorov, but he is heavier. Lemieux AND Sandstrom are more agile than Bondra, but they are heavier. Lemieux is more agile than... [insert every single light player in NHL '94 picked in Round 2 and later]

Am I supposed to be convinced that all the responses are from the guys that never win? Ice talking about C checking but failed to make noise in GENS A with BOS, the best C checking team in the game loololol so convincing Marasco!

Ah yes, I'm talking a bit out of sync because I'm assuming/suggesting ADP be based on many drafts, not just the last 3 (more data = better data, typically.. although I ignore the first 2 seasons because no one knew what they were doing. You could also weight the ADP so the more recent seasons affect the data more heavily if you like, to use recent trends).

I've tested different player weights, too. The lighter player, with equivalent other stats, accelerates faster. I did this with a 1on1 ROM. The light guy gets off the mark really fast, but once they're up the speed, they're going the same speed (but the light guy is in the lead). And yes agility will help you dipsey-doodle (see: Randy Wood for terrible dispey-doodling). But equivalent players otherwise, weight will help.

Anyway, long story short: ADP-based draft formula is just a way to objectively identify trades that should be reviewed, or give pause to inexperienced coaches who are getting ripped off without knowing it.

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