HABS

Closing the gap between GENS A and B players

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49 minutes ago, Premium said:

Plain and simple:

People would always pass up on skill for body checking. Now that the best players are the best body checkers, the CB check gets the best of both worlds while the non body checkers get worse players.

It doesn't matter if you don't think of it like that. That's clearly what it is. The guys who never used to draft heavy players are doing so now. 

But this is not the case. People would not always pass up skill on body checking. Me playing with Otto for example  in Plablegs has more to do with his AI (def awa & chk) and especially on offence playing close to the net for onetimers, I don't get to do many CB with him in a game. I traded Tikkanen for example to Lebeau, but I don't get the same chemistry with Lebeau as I did with Tikk or Otto on LW.

There is no tradeoff existing as a true consept, that's all in the head as is should it exist or not. I view things purely as attributes and weight got a boost in Classic via CB. It's a physics where light players can be beasts with checking and heavy players as well, whether or not players are skilled does not play any significance. Majority of the skilled D-men are in the heavier end of the weight spectrum and if one thinks it's unfair, then it's in one's head only.

Weight is still stronger currency in Blitz physics than it is in Classic because checking doesn't work both ways (for light as well in Classic).

Simplified in the end it is the decision to play the game to your strenghts or just the way you like it and draft the guys with such attributes to support it. CB was always there, it just wasn't known and attributes are what they are, game and how we perceive things evolve and meta changes.

To cancel out CB is to move to play to Blitz physics where the heavy players are stronger overall. Here instead of CB, it's just C for everyone and light players are not good at C. I still like the complexity and variance CB brought to Classic, but CB has brought me closer to Blitz physics that I at first was akward with.

Edited by Depch

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How was I able draft Roenick, LaFontaine, Gilmour and Leetch in Blitz? How was I able to draft Gretzky, Lemieux, Carson, Coffey and Murphy in GDL before the CB check? It's obviously because I don't body check. 

I have the same draft strategies now, but it's literally impossible to build the teams of the same quality in GDL whereas I could still make great teams in Blitz was (where there is no CB). How you cannot see the "tradeoff" aspect is crazy.

There is no coincidence that the heavy players started getting drafted earlier once the CB check came along. If the CB check didn't exist, everyone would just be picking all of the buggers.

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Okay... Let's steer this back to how B players can improve.  And really how we can get this game even more competitive.  CB is it's own debate and it seems pretty heated.  Personally I think it has opened up the pool of players greatly and made drafts much deeper and more interesting.  While it is an exploit, so are most of the other things Raph listed above.  I'd say rebound goals are the grossiest goals in 94, a true hack that makes one vomit in their mouth everytime one is scored.  But I digress, let's get back to ideas on closing the skill gap.  

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55 minutes ago, Premium said:

 It's obviously because I don't body check. 

I've read this claim a number of times in this thread and thought it was funny that you've lead all recent leagues in body checks for (BCF).  Like wut. 

fallclassic.pngFall Classic

gdl.pngGDL

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I wonder if there may simply not be a quick way to close the gap. 

A lot of the top guys are guys who have played a long time. But the best players tend to be the ones who stick around. So it could simply be that new guys coming in will have potential along the bell curve, and most simply will be B players, while only a few will have the innate aptitude to become an A player (without excessive practice).

The long-time players also probably have a bit of an advantage from seeing the strategies evolve over time, so they have more tools to use (because they had more time to absorb all the different things).

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However I do think the videos showing off techniques, Raph's site, TK's posts are great accelerators / learning aids! Mentoring has worked for a few people I think. Studying game videos...

But sometimes you just have a plateau due to things like reflexes, coordination, competitiveness, and practice/study time.

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4 hours ago, Premium said:

How was I able draft Roenick, LaFontaine, Gilmour and Leetch in Blitz?

This I still do wonder. Clearly as important as weight has become in classic and how it is even more important in Blitz, it was overvalued.

I'm guessing weight will be overvalued by B players for forwards in Blitz physics due to the checking aspect and protection from it. Leaving open more skilled players on lower weight end. The exception of increased value on someone like Hull, Messier and heavier stickhandlers. B players should remember, that a heavy player without stick 5 is just as likely to go down as before vs b-checkers, it will only be a protection against low weight guys and players on the same tier who don't use b-checks and that is no way to improve your game, take these in to account when drafting. Looking at a short term gain for a better chance in b league might not help your overall game. It will also be away from A guys anyone getting such gems.

4 hours ago, Premium said:

How was I able to draft Gretzky, Lemieux, Carson, Coffey and Murphy in GDL before the CB check?

I remember this was a draft where I was talking that I would draft Lemieux and you said I won't be getting him, that you will take him instead. You had traded for 2 high draft picks (first round). I think this was not only because of CB, it was also that people were not as high on stickhandling as an attribute as you and I were in classic. If anything I also think CB has brought in inflation on importance of stickhandling.

So Lemieux & Gretzky were top 15 picks and Coffey was definately undervalued. I went on to pick Coffey early next draft just so you couldn't use him in the second round. I wasn't good at CB yet and couldn't use him well, always found him going astray from my team game, but that is not the case anymore. That was also the GDL that brought in the knowledge of CB afterwards and started to change the adaptation towards heavier players. It was this draft/GDL that started the change afterwards. You brought CB to knowledge after winning the GDL. It was you who changed the game. I think looking at ADP after this draft would be good in general perhaps still skipping the next one as it was just shaping up. Things still propably are adapting and taking a change, I can see Tikkanen going earlier and earlier, perhaps Mess as well. Would be interesting to compare things to Blitz physics draft (or the upcoming) from the past few classic physics drafts.

4 hours ago, Premium said:

How you cannot see the "tradeoff" aspect is crazy.

Because there is no tradeoff, just a different way people are seeing weight as an attribute. There are more skilled forwards in the lower weight players, there are more skilled defencemen on the heavier end. Weight is an attribute that matters more to guys who CB, passing is an attribute that might matters more to players who do pass shots.

The tradeoff you explain is subjective. It exists for you through your decisions how you play and how you perceive the game and approach it, it forces you to consider such things. But in reality, there is no tradeoff.

3 hours ago, HABS said:

Okay... Let's steer this back to how B players can improve.  And really how we can get this game even more competitive. CB is it's own debate and it seems pretty heated.

I agree this propably looked off track and could've been moved to the other thread on truth about pass shots & CB that aqua correctly answered to. I also must emphasize that there is nothing personal involved from my part in these discussions. Hopefully it brought some aspects of how things can be looked at and bring some insights to some people through that.

3 hours ago, HABS said:

I've read this claim a number of times in this thread and thought it was funny that you've lead all recent leagues in body checks for (BCF).

I remember it as well and think those are after whistle checks - plabber stated that at one point. As stated I have already found that visiting team checks increase the crowd volume by +1db. Home team I found that no correlation, but b-checks are +1db for both if I recall it right. When I tend to miss shots from open nets as a visiting team I have studied that the crowd volume tends to be on the higher end of the spectrum 90+. In the start of periods it's at 65db. Not counting the after whistle checks should be a thing for any league from now on just as a security if there was a correlation. Even better would be a study on crowd effects for the game and maybe freeze it at 65db for tests. I have quit doing after whistle checks due to this most of the time.

Edited by Depch
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Wow that a thread.  So many comments I don't even know where to start.  Actually, there's no need for me to really, as I agree with pretty much everyone's viewpoint on CB (except for Plabs).  Funny though because I share the vast majority of the same stances Plabs has on other issues related to 94.  But CB is where we become polar opposites.  In the end, I did comment, and it provided no value other than mild entertainment and fullfilling the urge to chime in.  In other words, you wasted your time reading this and I wasted mine typing it.  

I'm eager to comment on this "closing the gap" idea, but my take on it isn't the most encouraging opinion and I'm running on fumes right now..... so it's adios time.  

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I obviously don't come close to leading any league in body checking (besides maybe GDL16, a team I didn't draft). I don't understand how HABS could look at my rosters and even think so. 

Not only that, but we have played so many times and I rarely body check him. This lack of awareness about the game is what results in having no championships. Just completely clueless.

---------

The pass shot comparison is not the same thing. The pass shot isn't valued high enough to make it scarce. The fact is:

It is IMPOSSIBLE to build a good body checking team without the CB check. The fact that you can now is an advantage. Before it was a pick your poison type of deal with the B check vs. the C check, now it's that the CB check is flat out better. There is no question. 

Seriously, what's better: Gord Hynes and Tom Pedersen or Zarley Zalapski and Dave Manson? 

Without the CB check, people will tell you the first pairing is. But a guy like myself will say the second one is. With the CB check, everyone will tell you the second, but the CB checkers wouldnt mind playing with the first pair anyway, whereas I would.

It's not as simple as "playing to your strengths". The body checkers love BOTH pairings    with CB enabled, but only one without it. I only love one pairing regardless.

Edited by Premium

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1 hour ago, Premium said:

It's not as simple as "playing to your strengths". The body checkers love BOTH pairings    with CB enabled, but only one without it. I only love one pairing regardless.

I do not like the first pairing. I was always partially saved from being aware of the weight bug. I always knew that Ronning, Gilmour, Roenick etc. were great checkers, but never put much thought to it really. In Finnish leagues we moved to modified modern rosters fairly soon, from 2002 I think -> and I used Bertuzzi 220lbs and Jovanovski 212-220 & Ohlund 220lbs on D as I always played with Vancouver, but I didn't use C-check much then, just B-checks. As another blast from the past I did always whine to Swos though who had a low weight team with Buffalo in Briere, Afinogenov, Satan etc. (He dominated the modern leagues, no grudge.. anymore! :D I think my only successes came from classic & fantasies). It's possible Swos brought wbfix to more modern rosters as I recall I was aware of it when I came to play here in NA after years of absence from leagues. But as I was using B-check as my weapon of choice for defence in Finnish leagues I didn't think much of the defensive aspect the wbfix provided to C-checks.

What you are basically just explaining is that since you do not use CB you struggle with more things than players who do. You have more things to take in to consideration. Same is people for who do not pass shot or rebound, they cannot be as effective in goal scoring, but someone like Seth can plays outside of that.

CB is not directly comparable as it is more effective as it is a defensive aspect to the game where as offensive tricks are situational. But it's in the classic part of the game as are many of the offensive tricks. Classic game is now closer to Blitz physics than it ever was for CB players, for non CB players it's not. It's adapt or don't, I cannot see how anyone wants to make the superstars invulnerable again in classic physics.

I also hope you do not take any of this personally as that is not the case, I am just trying to make sense here that what you suggest as a tradeoff only exists because of your decisions. I also know that you want to have the last word on this case but there is nothing more I can say on this so this will be the last part from me commenting on this. :)

[Edit]

I must add that being able to use CB and make the decision to use it is very important. It allows you to play the old era classic game and take Blitz physics to use too without the added checking value and resistance. It's not unfair, that is subjective, it exists. From Plablegs my team as an example - Gilmour on C as 4 wgh bugger checks everyone 6+ weight and Fetisov with CB anyone below 9- weight, so no player is safe from this combination. Stickhandling is rendered less important. CB will be available in all live Gens tournaments so it also would be kinda silly to not use it online for classic.

Edited by Depch

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It's all my fault for stirring this up by asking about the CB, and wondering what it did, hahaha. Sorry gents :)  But this has been some interesting reading, and seeing everyone's viewpoint on it. 

Edited by LTNINGFan

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( EDIT: I didn't meant to post this twice, my apologies)

Edited by LTNINGFan

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On 1/20/2017 at 10:56 PM, HABS said:

I feel like a lot of B players are close.  What if A players helped mentor B players, especially guys struggling but playing their games. 

Let's get this thread back on track: How can we turn more Bs into As?

I think HABS hit the nail on the head -- in the first post of this thread -- with mentoring.  But, related to that, I think the key is A guys simply need to play B guys!  I bet if all I played were A level guys, I would get better (sort of) fast, even without any actual advice.  That is a big part of "mentoring", simply mingling and playing with guys worse than you.  (I do have to give a shout out to King Raph, cuz the dude is better than anyone at playing guys much worse than him.  And if all the A guys had his attitude, there would be a helluva lot more A guys in the talent pool. WTG Raphy!)

Anyhoo, to facilitate A guys playing B guys, maybe we should have an AIM group called "B Workshop" (or whatever) that is every Wednesday at 9pm EST, where a few A guys will try to be around with the express purpose of playing B level guys, and then chatting in between games about improvement.  Or even no chat, just play the dudes!  That is the key!  I am not saying have 4 A guys committed to 9pm every Wed., I am saying have a bunch of A guys *aware* that 9pm EST is workshop time, and if some B guys show up in the group, and s Sensei Master A dude happens to be free, he plays a few games with a B instead of doing 2on2 or seeking out more A guys or watching Netflix or whatever.  Throw. Some. Bones. To. B. Guys!  It can only help in the long run! :):):) 

Ja?
 

 

Edited by aqualizard

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I created a "mentoring" discord group.  Here's the invite link: https://discord.gg/swE9qwp. Just type a name and you're in (and you can create a full account later if you want)

Discord has voice chat, which would be great for mentoring. Use the "Game 1/2/3" voice channels.

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I used to play A guys a lot & I would get better at what I was good at, and  trying to use that to close the gap, but it didn't help me make much of a jump , tbh.  Playing B+ guys & A- guys is JUST as good as long as you do play SOME A + to test where you are at from time to time.

 

i needed to get good at what I was bad at.  And basically, if you are bad at dodging upper cuts, training vs Mike Tyson is only going to leave you brain dead.

 

Not poo-poo'ing playing & getting mentored but it's the practice & honest analysis of your game that will get your skill up.  AND, guys don't play it, but you B guys should start playing 2v2.  It's great FUN & builds some needed skills like manual goalie & 1-0 deke/break aways.

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The biggest issue with playing guys well above your level is the lop-sided scores. Obviously everyone hates a lop-sided score - but it's the momentum that is the real issue. When an A player gets up 3-4 goals on you, your players go into shellshock and cannot complete a simple pass - it's like awareness just drops through the floor. It's really difficult to work on anything other than goalie control when your team refuses to play.

I think that if guys are serious about a mentor model, then just playing isn't enough. These need to be structured in some way - and instead of simple chat, should have full voice chat (which I think discord can provide). There should be roms developed to help work on offence/defence (1v1, or maybe 3v2 with 3 forwards on one side and 2 defence on the other). Lots of game pausing/resets to allow for pointers/conversations.

One thing I'd love to see with the scoring videos out there, would be a view of the controller button presses. Either a screen within a screen with a camera on the finger presses - or there is a version of the GENS emulator that shows the button presses in text at the top of the screen. For a lot of the moves, pass-shots especially, it's a timing thing. To visualize the timing would be a great help, for me anyway.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Brutus said:

Not poo-poo'ing playing & getting mentored but it's the practice & honest analysis of your game that will get your skill up.  AND, guys don't play it, but you B guys should start playing 2v2.  It's great FUN & builds some needed skills like manual goalie & 1-0 deke/break aways.

Well what about "practice & honest analysis of your game" AND playing higher talent?  Everyone is different.  But if you took 1000 B-level guys, and had 500 of them play only A level guys for 3 months, and the other 500 play only B level guys, I am confident there will be bigger improvements with the guys playing higher talent.  Not everyone of them.  But more of them.

As you mentioned, a newbie, or a C level player who would get creamed (like a rank amateur fighting Mike Tyson), yeah, it won't help getting killed repeatedly.  But a solid B guy that is tying to improve, and wants to improve, and seeking to improve, yeah, in my opinion he will benefit from playing more As. I strongly feel in my own case I would. (But hey, I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. ;))

Edited by aqualizard

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As a B player who is way to over aggressive and impatient I will give 1 piece of advice to other B players who find themselves like me, and to guys who C check, and miss way to much creating tons of scoring chances for your opponent.

Play a bunch of exis NEVER using the C button for the purposes of checking, OR speed burst, skate up, and down the ice without it, and always B check on D (yes you will find yourself trailing someone skating up the ice on D, but don't worry about it).  You will find yourself being in much better position on D after a few games, then play a game using the C button for checking and speed burst as neeeded to see if the experimental games without it have made you more disciplined with employing it, and even more efficient with it, keep doing this until you see a big change in your play.

Not guaranteeing a miracle here, but it is something that can help you take a small step to improvement.  I personally used to do this back when I first started, and found it helped a lot, haven't done it in a long time, and I probably should take my own advice and do it as I'm horrendous right now at being over aggressive with the C button.

Also when your exing purposely play with heavier guys that can't C check lighter guys, and can get C checked easily by lighter guys this will help you with learning how to dodge more checks with the puck, and play defense using B checks, CB. checks, and better positioning.

Anyways my rant is over, and it's a shame I'll never take my own advice on this for improvement but if anyone does, let me know how it worked out, and if it is viable way to improve your play.

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43 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

As a B player who is way to over aggressive and impatient I will give 1 piece of advice to other B players who find themselves like me, and to guys who C check, and miss way to much creating tons of scoring chances for your opponent.

Play a bunch of exis NEVER using the C button for the purposes of checking, OR speed burst, skate up, and down the ice without it, and always B check on D (yes you will find yourself trailing someone skating up the ice on D, but don't worry about it).  You will find yourself being in much better position on D after a few games, then play a game using the C button for checking and speed burst as neeeded to see if the experimental games without it have made you more disciplined with employing it, and even more efficient with it, keep doing this until you see a big change in your play.

Not guaranteeing a miracle here, but it is something that can help you take a small step to improvement.  I personally used to do this back when I first started, and found it helped a lot, haven't done it in a long time, and I probably should take my own advice and do it as I'm horrendous right now at being over aggressive with the C button.

Also when your exing purposely play with heavier guys that can't C check lighter guys, and can get C checked easily by lighter guys this will help you with learning how to dodge more checks with the puck, and play defense using B checks, CB. checks, and better positioning.

Anyways my rant is over, and it's a shame I'll never take my own advice on this for improvement but if anyone does, let me know how it worked out, and if it is viable way to improve your play.

Food for thought Lupz27, thanks for the advice on that. I am going to need a big binder to keep everyones tips and suggestions together. So much good info..

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4 hours ago, jer_33 said:

One thing I'd love to see with the scoring videos out there, would be a view of the controller button presses. Either a screen within a screen with a camera on the finger presses - or there is a version of the GENS emulator that shows the button presses in text at the top of the screen. For a lot of the moves, pass-shots especially, it's a timing thing. To visualize the timing would be a great help, for me anyway.

 

 

 

 

Someone should do this!

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On the gens re-recording emulator, you can show the button presses.   I didn't find it that useful, but it's quite amazing just how many commands are entered each second.  However, I'll try to put that in any future vids I have, can't hurt.

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1 hour ago, kingraph said:

On the gens re-recording emulator, you can show the button presses.   I didn't find it that useful, but it's quite amazing just how many commands are entered each second.  However, I'll try to put that in any future vids I have, can't hurt.

I would love to see this for a pass shot tutorial.

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On 1/28/2017 at 0:42 AM, TexasPachyderm said:

I would love to see this for a pass shot tutorial.

I think that it's easier than many people think. It's not the same combination of buttons everytime people do it. Basically it is finding a good position for it and trying to hook the goalie to your movement, so it's a lot about fast moves left and right and then just pressing the pass button and it's not always identical.

The goalie has a trajectory on the puck movement so doing small dekes can force the goalie to open up for the pass. You finish the pass with kind of like what you could think of a sling move and pass at the end of it.

The easiest pass shot that I first learned was similar to the short side snap shot deke to a goalie. You know where you come diagonally short side and the goalie leaves the short side open. Well, that same applies to a pass shot and the faster the player, the farther you can do it because of the goalie trajectory leaving the post a bit open. In this one you don't even have to do the sling movement just skate diagonally and straighten your skating to upward and pass directly upwards. I made a small clip of this.

Key things to notice are that the goalie follows the trajectory of the puck. Notice the goalie not moving at all when Lumme skates diagonally, because that is where the puck is projected to go, he just holds the position, then at a proper moment just straighten up and pass. The following I did with Courtnall from a bit farther but it follows the same logic, the goalie just holds the position because of trajectory and then just release at a proper moment when the angle for the pass is proper. Remember that the pass picks up on the trajectory of the movement your player had so you don't even have to be at a direct Y line to do it. This is probably the simplest one and the very first I had learned.
 

 

Edited by Depch

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8 minutes ago, jackandjose said:

Says video is private.

I changed it to hidden, should work now?

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35 minutes ago, Depch said:

I changed it to hidden, should work now?

Yup, it works.

I don't see that particular pass shot that much? (Or maybe I don't realize that is what it is during game play.)

But I like it!  Do you have more vids, or different types? That is a good technique, doing in real time, followed by a replay with slow mo, and rewind.

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28 minutes ago, aqualizard said:

Yup, it works.

I don't see that particular pass shot that much? (Or maybe I don't realize that is what it is during game play.)

But I like it!  Do you have more vids, or different types? That is a good technique, doing in real time, followed by a replay with slow mo, and rewind.

I have not done others, just did that as an example. This particular pass shot is very much situational, it's easy to block with defencemen. Great pass shooters can do it from the crowd as well, but it's still quite hard. You can see JV / Kingraph do this type at least.

The same concept is true for other pass shots as well. Goalie follows where the puck is going to be skated and holds that trajectory. Fake the goalie with the movement and create room then you can start to use the sling with the stick as well for the release. The X-movement of the player helps with the pass moving a bit in a diagonal fashion. It is more of a "feel" type of a goal that comes with repetition that you don't have to really even think about it when doing it, you just feel it and do it from the backbone.

Courtnall can hold the goalie in the middle from farther than Lumme. It's about trajectory and fooling the goalie and getting used to that, everyone can pass. Then just get used to the puck picking up on the diagonal movement. Repeat, repeat and you get used to it, when you start from this, you can apply to it to other types.

Edited by Depch

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VC scored on me with that pass shot at Ko94 Toronto (and had a few just barely miss)

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1 hour ago, Depch said:

I think that it's easier than many people think. It's not the same combination of buttons everytime people do it. Basically it is finding a good position for it and trying to hook the goalie to your movement, so it's a lot about fast moves left and right and then just pressing the pass button and it's not always identical.

The goalie has a trajectory on the puck movement so doing small dekes can force the goalie to open up for the pass. You finish the pass with kind of like what you could think of a sling move and pass at the end of it.

The easiest pass shot that I first learned was similar to the short side snap shot deke to a goalie. You know where you come diagonally short side and the goalie leaves the short side open. Well, that same applies to a pass shot and the faster the player, the farther you can do it because of the goalie trajectory leaving the post a bit open. In this one you don't even have to do the sling movement just skate diagonally and straighten your skating to upward and pass directly upwards. I made a small clip of this.

Key things to notice are that the goalie follows the trajectory of the puck. Notice the goalie not moving at all when Lumme skates diagonally, because that is where the puck is projected to go, he just holds the position, then at a proper moment just straighten up and pass. The following I did with Courtnall from a bit farther but it follows the same logic, the goalie just holds the position because of trajectory and then just release at a proper moment when the angle for the pass is proper. Remember that the pass picks up on the trajectory of the movement your player had so you don't even have to be at a direct Y line to do it. This is probably the simplest one and the very first I had learned.
 

 

Excellent post, BUT the one thing you don't understand is how hard that is to actually execute with a dpad compared to a keyboard.  Timing the pass while the stick is vertical like that is very difficult as it will go past vertical a lot due to the 8 directional axis on the gens dpad, that's why I give Ice, and Raph so much credit for being able to do these on command using the gens controller, they are the only 2 non boarders I know that can do them at will.

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