smozoma

Introducing: Ladder League

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I've been meaning to put together a ladder league forever.

The intention is to integrate it into nhl94online.com, but that'll take some time, so I figure I might as well just start it up without the website, then having the data will encourage me to get started on the website.

The system will use an Elo-like rating system that will take into account the quality of the teams used. However to make things simpler at the start I want to factor out the team differences and get straight to the player(coach) ratings. So... at first all games are same-teams!

Here's what you need to do:

  1. Play a home-and-home with identical teams (same teams for both games, ie both players are say Montreal for both games)
  2. Classic ROM only! Weight bug fix will be introduced later.
  3. Make save-states of both games. Label them in a way that indicates who was the home team, so for example kingraph-MTL@MTL-icestor.gs0, icestorm-MTL@MTL-kingraph.gs1
  4. Also indicate if it's genesis or SNES
  5. Zip both save states into one zip file. If you don't know how, please ask.
  6. Make a post on this thread and attach the zip file. Please also write the scores of both games and who won them (kingraph MTL 3 @ 2 MTL icestorm, icestorm MTL 5 @ 3 MTL kingraph)
Then I'll periodically update the ratings on here while also working on the website.

Initial ratings will probably be based on the latest IIHF style classic ratings, then results from this thread will be introduced and modify the ratings

Here are the current ratings (the 'divisions' are just groups of powers of 2: 1/2/4/8/16...):

Sega

Rnk	 Elo	Coach
---Champ--------------------
1	2162	kingraph -> 2177->2162
---Challengers--------------		
2	2052	Depch
3	1987	angryjay93
---Elite--------------------		
4	1940	Uncle Seth
5	1902	swos
6	1871	FlamingPavelBure
7	1844	zeppelin55 -> 1844->1849
---Good---------------------		
8	1819	------
9	1796	Icestorm NHL94
10	1776	Sicarius Fulgur
11	1756	Vocally Caged
12	1738	brutus
13	1721	TomKabs93
14	1704	jmj
15	1688	canadiensfan66
----Improving----------------		
16	1673	TexasPachyderm
17	1658	hokkeefan2
18	1644	Begley15
19	1630	Lupz27 -> 1630->1626
20	1616	Gretzkyonacold
21	1602	CBK26
22	1589	Evan
23	1576	Fitzo
24	1563	AtomicRaven
25	1525	smozoma -> 1525->1536->1532->1547->1551
26	1550	RoBro
27	1538	JackVandal
28	1513	minpind
29	1500	skeletor
30	1487	skip
31	1475	Darko
---Potential-----------------		
32	1462	clockwise
33	1450	jer_33
34	1437	wwojo75
35	1424	aqualizard
36	1411	scribe99
37	1398	monkeyjuice1702
38	1384	kgman01
39	1370	LABS_66
40	1356	eggink444
41	1342	Pearate
42	1327	lasyoen
43	1312	maverick_z
44	1296	Northway Native
45	1279	McMarkis
46	1262	chefstar88
47	1244	millertime2325
48	1224	CoachMac
49	1204	jackandjose
50	1181	Wittgenstein
51	1156	mikey_mac94
52	1129	SoCalKing
53	1098	jagr68
54	1060	Culls17
55	1013	donnybrook
56	 948	orangeblack92
57	 823	jvc621

 

SNES

Rnk	Elo	Coach
---Champ--------------------
1	2127	Oilers442
---Challengers--------------		
2	1994	BobKudelski26
3	1922	annatar
---Elite--------------------		
4	1870	angryjay93
5	1828	McMarkis
6	1792	c4outlaws
7	1760	BlackDevil19
---Good---------------------		
8	1731	stheds2000
9	1705	kingraph
10	1680	jbalicki10
11	1656	Grayto
12	1634	BoKnowsNHL94
13	1612	Joe Baker
14	1591	matticefire
15	1570	pondhcky1
---Potential----------------		
16	1550	tylerdeanhill
17	1530	rmac111
18	1510	Hazmat13
19	1490	fenty62
20	1470	NorthwayNative
21	1450	Shaftman
22	1430	The90Jacket
23	1409	etevans101
24	1388	crash46
25	1366	chaos
26	1344	heymelo27
27	1320	Jackandjose
28	1295	kupuck19
29	1269	the1jasontaylor
30	1240	schwartz
31	1208	Brutus
32	1172	Omega-Red
33	1130	tommy1978
34	1078	Fank009
35	1006	singelmamma
36	 873	marchawg

 

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example post:

Quote

Genesis

smozoma TOR 3 @ 7 TOR  kingraph

kingraph TOR 5 (OT) @ 4 TOR smozoma

(smozoma-kingraph-TOR.zip attached)

 

Note: overtime is important to the results

the team/player listed after the @ is the home team.  so it's <away player, team, score> @ <home player, team score>

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Starting rankings are classic league iihf ratings, minus 400 points. 1500 is considered average (1900 iihf). based on classic league IIHF ratings, mapped to a normal distribution around an average rating of 1500. If you don't have a classic league rating, you start at 1500 in the ladder league ratings.

http://forum.nhl94.com/index.php?/topic/14399-classic-iihf-style-rankings-updated/&

(Can the iihf ratings be updated based on recent classic leagues to give an accurate starting point for the ladder league?)

Feel free to start playing, we don't need the iihf ratings to get started.

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46 minutes ago, smozoma said:

Starting rankings are classic league iihf ratings, minus 400 points. 1500 is considered average (1900 iihf).

http://forum.nhl94.com/index.php?/topic/14399-classic-iihf-style-rankings-updated/&

(Can the iihf ratings be updated based on recent classic leagues to give an accurate starting point for the ladder league?)

Yes sir, I can update that late tonight probably.

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I updated the Genesis classic standings to Fall'16.  I didn't do SNES yet, I don't think those guys even play exis, so not a particular rush. 

I hope this works out!

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Thanks!

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Starting ratings have been added the first post! These are approximations based on an average rating of 1500 and standard deviation of 285, and ranking based on the IIHF classic rankings.

Generally you should only challenge people in either the same group as you or an adjacent group, but it's not a strict rule.

In theory if you have 400 more Elo points than someone, you should beat them 90% of the time.

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Cool stuff.. and look who's pulling up the #33 ranking!

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Would there be more interest in this if I gave it a league-like flavour?

Sign up below.

The 'schedule' will be 4 games against everyone. Each pair of games must be the same teams. So you might play 2 games as DET and 2 as PIT... With 26 teams to choose from, I'm sure you can agree on some teams to play with without it being assigned, but I could come up with random assignments, or a method of determining mutually-agreeable teams, if necessary. So that more teams get used, let's say you can only use a team for up to 4 total games (because I also want to gather info about home/away strength of the teams)

The standings for the league will be both your 'Elo' rating score, as well as your change in 'Elo' from when you started. So if you're low on the starting rankings, if you perform well you will be high on the 'change in Elo' scale.

You can begin playing and submitting games immediately (submission rules in the firstpost)! As more guys join, the "schedule" automatically expands.. 

Season 2 will discard the same-teams rule (edit: as well as the home-and-home)

Season 3 will introduce optional line changes, penalties, offsides...

Game rules are the usual rules, until season 3.

Signed up:
---------------------

  1. smozoma (Sega and SNES)
  2. jer_33 (Sega)
  3. CoachMac (just Sega?)

You can do Sega, SNES, or both.

Also, you don't really even need to sign up, you can just start playing!

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I'll sign-up, and try to get some games (Sega only) like this done during Classic.

Edited by jer_33

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My guess is at the start of Classic, and Coach's Retro league, this is not getting as much attention.  I will remember if I play exis to suggest same teams.  

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5 hours ago, kingraph said:

My guess is at the start of Classic, and Coach's Retro league, this is not getting as much attention.  I will remember if I play exis to suggest same teams.  

+1,

but IN.

 

Edited by CoachMac

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3 hours ago, smozoma said:

Would there be more interest in this if I gave it a league-like flavour?

Sign up below.

The 'schedule' will be 4 games against everyone. Each pair of games...


Yes, I would be much more interested if it were a league.  Also, if it was running during down time, like after Classic is complete (or at least when it is winding down).  

Just my $.02...

Edited by aqualizard

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1 hour ago, aqualizard said:


Yes, I would be much more interested if it were a league.  Also, if it was running during down time, like after Classic is complete (or at least when it is winding down).  

Just my $.02...

The intention is that it's basically a league for exis. So if you just want to play some games and can't find someone in whatever league you're in, you can always play some exis and submit them.

In the meantime, you can join up if you want, and play whenever you can find guys, and not worry too much about incomplete games.

You don't even need to play guys who are "in" the league -- any games against any guys can count. 

Also, eventually Classic league games will automatically be incorporated into your ladder ratings (it'll take your team's strength into account when adjusting your rating)

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1 hour ago, smozoma said:

The intention is that it's basically a league for exis. So if you just want to play some games and can't find someone in whatever league you're in, you can always play some exis and submit them.

In the meantime, you can join up if you want, and play whenever you can find guys, and not worry too much about incomplete games.

You don't even need to play guys who are "in" the league -- any games against any guys can count. 

Also, eventually Classic league games will automatically be incorporated into your ladder ratings (it'll take your team's strength into account when adjusting your rating)

I dunno, I feel like if it was a league, or if games somehow seemed more "official", it would be better.  I know I take "real" games a lot more seriously than exis. (Yes, I know you could say "Well play these as if they are real," but it seems different to me.  Especially if I just do the odd one here and there, as opposed to during a dedicated "Ladder League Season".)

I am probably just being nitpicky, but I thought I would share my OCD thoughts.

On another note, I think you should should come up with a name for the person who asked to be removed from the list instead of "-------".  I think "Mr.Contrarian" or "Doogie Howser" or something would be more fun. :P

 

 

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5 hours ago, kingraph said:

My guess is at the start of Classic, and Coach's Retro league, this is not getting as much attention.  I will remember if I play exis to suggest same teams.  

+1,

but IN!

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54 minutes ago, aqualizard said:

I dunno, I feel like if it was a league, or if games somehow seemed more "official", it would be better.  I know I take "real" games a lot more seriously than exis. (Yes, I know you could say "Well play these as if they are real," but it seems different to me.  Especially if I just do the odd one here and there, as opposed to during a dedicated "Ladder League Season".)
 

Totally understandable!

It just fills a void of, minimal organization/coordination but still gives recognizable achievement. Definitely not for everyone, but it is more in line with modern ranked games like DOTA/LOL/HOTS, overwatch, where you play to get to gold or platinum or whatever ranking. 

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Well, then we need to give the ladder rankings! 

Superstar, All-Star, Beer-league plug, Pylon...

 

Ladder league would certainly become a great resource for splitting A/B division leagues in the future.. MOAR DATA!

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First games!

Genesis

zeppelin55 QUE 3  @ 2 QUE smozoma

smozoma QUE 1 @ 5 QUE zep

---- 

and the Elo rating changes...

each 2-game series has 8 points up for grab for calculating Elo: win=4, OTW=3, T=2, OTL=1, L=0. Add those up, divide by 8 and you get the series score for calculation purposes. (Note: that doesn't mean our ratings will change by up to 8 points. The value is used as a parameter for the Elo calculation)

starting: zeppelin55=1844, smozoma=1536, that says zepp is expected to get 6.88 points in this matchup (likelihood of winning is 86% according to (http://www.3dkingdoms.com/chess/elo.htm) and multiply that by 8)

result: zepp won 2-0, no overtimes = (4+4)/8 = 100%

change: Zeppelin55: +4.46, smozoma: -4.46

ending: Zeppelin55: 1849, smozoma: 1532

zep-2-smoz-0-QUE.zip

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Games from a couple days ago. I hit up aqua for games, forgetting he said he wasn't too interested on here... offered to leave the games off, but he said to go ahead and include them. Previous series vs zepp's score adjustment reworked to reflect my Elo change from this series.

Genesis

smozoma BUF 3 @ 2 BUF aqualizard

aqualizard BUF 1 @ 3 BUF smozoma

smoz-8-aqua-0.zip

---- 

            Start  Odds      Result     Change  Final
smozoma      1525   64%    W +  W = 8   +11.48   1536
aqualizard   1424   36%    L +  L = 0   -11.48   1413

League standings:

            Record(Series) Record(Pts)   Pts%   Change  Current
Zeppelin55      1-0-0          8-0      1.000    +4.66    1849
smozoma         1-1-0          8-8      0.500    +6.82    1532
aqualizard      0-1-0          0-8      0.000   -11.48    1413

 

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An upset! If a tied series can be an upset...

KingRaph DAL 3 @ 2 DAL smozoma

smozoma DAL 4 @ 3 DAL KingRaph

KingRaph-4-smozoma-4-DAL.zip

------

            Start  Odds      Result     Change  Final
KingRaph     2177   98%    W +  L = 4   -15.24   2162
smozoma      1532    2%    L +  W = 4   +15.24   1547

Note that even though the series was tied, points are transferred from the higher-rated player to the lower-rated player.

Standings:

Sega
            Record(Series) Record(Pts)   Pts%   Change  Current
KingRaph        0-0-1          4-4      0.500   -15.24    2162
Zeppelin55      1-0-0          8-0      1.000    +4.66    1849
smozoma         1-1-1         12-12     0.500   +22.06    1547
aqualizard      0-1-0          0-8      0.000   -11.48    1413

 

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Another split!

lupz DET 1 @ 5 DET smozoma

smozoma DET 5 @ 6 DET lupz 

smozoma-4-lupz-4-DET.zip

----

            Start  Odds      Result     Change  Final
Lupz27       1630   62%    L +  W = 4    -3.75   1626
smozoma      1547   38%    W +  L = 4    +3.75   1551

Standings

Sega
            Record(Series) Record(Pts)   Pts%   Change  Current
KingRaph        0-0-1          4-4      0.500   -15.24    2162
Zeppelin55      1-0-0          8-0      1.000    +4.66    1849
Lupz27          0-0-1          4-4      0.500    -3.75    1626
smozoma         1-1-2         16-16     0.500   +25.81    1551
aqualizard      0-1-0          0-8      0.000   -11.48    1413

 

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