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aqualizard

Checking Success and Weight

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I understand the weight bug (light guys are monster checkers) and I understand that CB checking can overcome it, but I am trying to REALLY understand how traditional checking works.  Seeking a formula of sorts.

So, without using CB, and for open ice C-checks:

  1. if a 3 weighter C-Checks a 3-weighter, what is chance of a knock down?
  2. If a 3 weighter C-checks a 4 weighter, how does % chance change?
  3. do we know (or approximately know) how the % chance of success changes as weight margin increases?  (Even if we don't "know", I would love to see some guesses.)

I am not new, and I have done research.  The rule of thumb seems to be "2 or greater weight margin (with checker being light, receiver being heavy) success very likely.  But I am sure there is a nuance here.  I feel like a small percentage of the time, anyone can have success against anyone.  Is this just in my head?  (Or Lindros on Fleury literally *never* succeeds?) Also, does momentum and agility, angles of contact,  and some "unknown sauce" play a factor in flattening guys? (I saw Smozoma mention some unknown "magic" in a post).

Edit: I will add some related threads here.

Edited by aqualizard

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Without analyzing the code, these are going to be difficult questions to get specific answers for, other than experimental observations ("i played a game of whole team wgt 3 vs whole team wgt 4 and 20% of my open-ice checks succeeded.. 15% when i did (something) to the agilities of the teams")

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Just an approximate is cool. :)

Casual opinions like:

  • "I think Like 3 on 3 wt, I think 10-20% chance."
  • "But 5 weight checking 3 wt, > 75% chance."
  • "No, I do not think momentum or agility plays a role"
  • "Without CB or near boards, Lindros cannot flatten Theo, ever..."

That sort of thing... I know a definitive answer is unlikely. (That is even more-so if you in particular don't have one!)

Edited by aqualizard
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We agree that weight seems to be the primary factor in check success.  I haven't done the testing, but some of my anecdotal (based on thousands of hours of gameplay, no research) thoughts:

* Point of contact, or angle of check is a big factor.  A check right to the "chest" of a player will have a much higher success rate than if the player is moving away/sideways.  Basically I think of it as a radius of contact for each player and the more in contact (overlap) they are at the time of impact, the greater the checking success.  Picture a semi-circle in front of each player, and the more they overlap when they are in a check, the higher the success.  
* In this way, agility is important as it gives you the ability to dodge quickly and cause your opponent to partially check your player.  Or in my radius analogy, one player moves his radius of contact away, so only 50% of that semi-circle is in contact with the other players.    
* CB has a higher success rate than plain C, or another way to put it I think the weight difference needed is smaller for higher success.  Also, I'm pretty sure checking rating factors in here as Coffey (9 wgt, 2 chk)  can't CB worth a damn, but Tikkanen (9 wgt, 5 chk) has tremendous CB success.  I'd say Tikkanen can take out any 9 weight player with high frequency.  
* Being near the boards is no mans land.  Everyone dies there.  Lindros can flatten Fleury.  

Those are my two cents to add to this thread.  I am intrigued about looking at the code though as I've gotten better at deciphering over the last few months with my '95 hack.  To be continued...

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3 minutes ago, kingraph said:

* CB has a higher success rate than plain C, or another way to put it I think the weight difference needed is smaller for higher success.  Also, I'm pretty sure checking rating factors in here as Coffey (9 wgt, 2 chk)  can't CB worth a damn, but Tikkanen (9 wgt, 5 chk) has tremendous CB success.  I'd say Tikkanen can take out any 9 weight player with high frequency.  

Hm interesting!

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Body checks work 99% of the time if the checker is two points lighter than the receiver. The exceptions to this are when the receiver has high stick handling (5 or 6), when the receiver has a strong enough home advantage and >=4 stick handling. 

Sometimes a check just won't have any effect at all. I'm not sure what causes this, but it's a lot more common when you play against the CPU. That is what I consider to be the remaining 1%.

Anyone can check anyone, but if the general rule doesn't apply, I'd say it's about a 15% chance.

Also, body checks should be done with enough distance between the players. If you are too close when you start your check, you will just brush up against your opponent. When you are very close to someone you want to check, watch the legs of your player, and start your body check when you are on your back leg so you can get enough momentum. This doesn't apply to ALL situations, but usually you can tell when you are too close to body check.

Raph summed up the rest.

 

Edited by Premium
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SNES has much higher momentum swings, so you find figure out the checking in that version even harder to figure out, as players just randomly go in beast mode.

You DO see this from time to time in GENS.   So, it can skew what you perceive as the rules of checking.  The more you put stock in the "rare" event, the less you'll nail down the straight truth.

Plabax mentions the momentum changing the stick handling rating, and that's important to understand.  As your team gains momentum or loses it, your team's player's ratings go up some & down some.  High stick handling makes a guy resist B checks and SOME C checks, aka think about fat Mario taking checks all game as long as he turns away from it.  So, the angle of the check is what enables a guy to use his stick handling to resist SOME of the c checks.  There are plenty of C check angles that high stick handling does not help.  Direct hits from the side, front or behind or anything as Raph mentions along the boards.

 

I had no issues checking w/ Coffey in C/b.  I've not witnessed Raph's perception of better C/b with higher checking.

 

As for C checking (not c/b), same weight or within one weight I find bounces off 80% of the time if I had to put a number on it, UNLESS you skate straight at a guy.  Fat defenders regularly will flatten even JR if they have a good amount of speed going straight at him.

SO, final variable for me is speed.  The faster you are traveling, the better you check, regardless of weight, imo.  It's something not talked about as often. 

 

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Also, while you are shooting and IF you just are receiving a pass can alter the rules greatly.   I regularly time my hits as you are getting a pass, and it normally lays the guy out regardless of weight.

It's also where you see most of the KO's

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1 hour ago, Premium said:

When you are very close to someone you want to check, watch the legs of your player, and start your body check when you are on your back leg so you can get enough momentum.

Geez, how do you ever notice something like that :D

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can someone explain how my guys get taken down from behind?

I feel like I'm the one person who doesn't know how to do this. Is it a b check? CB? When I CB someone skating away from me it never works. 

I also have never witnessed that checking increases the odds of a CB. You'd expect some of the 1 checking guys to suck at CB checks, and I've never noticed that.

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51 minutes ago, kylewat said:

can someone explain how my guys get taken down from behind?

 

Skaters can sneak up and C/CB/B-check someone from behind just the same as lining up in front.  It's harder to do because you have to catch someone, so you'd likely need a fast skating checker.  

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1 hour ago, kylewat said:

I also have never witnessed that checking increases the odds of a CB. You'd expect some of the 1 checking guys to suck at CB checks, and I've never noticed that.

2 hours ago, Brutus said:

I had no issues checking w/ Coffey in C/b.  I've not witnessed Raph's perception of better C/b with higher checking.

I think @kingraph is correct. The checking rating seems to make a difference.

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Yeah I doubt I'm right about this because I think both Raph & Plabax look more closely at this than I do.

 

im actually fairly meticulous about knowing everyone's weight & rarely try to c/b a guy I'm not 2 weight higher than, so maybe maybe I don't see the check rating play a role because it doesn't unless you are trying to check a guy same weight or within 1.

 

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6 hours ago, Premium said:

Body checks work 99% of the time if the checker is two points lighter than the receiver. The exceptions to this are when the receiver has high stick handling (5 or 6), when the receiver has a strong enough home advantage and >=4 stick handling. 

Sometimes a check just won't have any effect at all. I'm not sure what causes this, but it's a lot more common when you play against the CPU. That is what I consider to be the remaining 1%.

Anyone can check anyone, but if the general rule doesn't apply, I'd say it's about a 15% chance.

Also, body checks should be done with enough distance between the players. If you are too close when you start your check, you will just brush up against your opponent. When you are very close to someone you want to check, watch the legs of your player, and start your body check when you are on your back leg so you can get enough momentum. This doesn't apply to ALL situations, but usually you can tell when you are too close to body check.

Raph summed up the rest.

 

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Maybe I went too in-depth. We'll sum it up like this:

Body checks work 99% of the time if the checker is two points lighter than the receiver.

Anyone can check anyone, but if the general rule doesn't apply, I'd say it's about a 15% chance.

Edited by Premium

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Actually I thought your original post was awesome, as is!  And though I appreciated everyone's replies (greats nuggets across the board) your post was the most in the spirit of what I was asking, with real percentage estimates I can wrap my head around.  (Especially that line "Anyone can check anyone, but if the general rule doesn't apply, I'd say it's about a 15% chance.")

What you say about stickhandling is interesting, too.  But I have to wonder if -- re: C-Checks -- if it is more agility than stickhandling? (They *usually* go together.)

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Agility determines how fast you can go from a standstill. It doesn't affect anything else. Like Raph said, it's just hard to hit a player with high agility because they are so quick.

Edited by Premium

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Image result for kids watching tv with hand on face

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Being newer to playing in the leagues, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the weight bug. I understand what it means, but I think I'm lost on how or if the checking rating applies. Which player types are more likely to have a successful C-B check? High weight, low check? High weight, high check? If I C-B check with a 9-weight and 2-check player, which attribute determines a successful check?

In theory, a 9-weight 2-check player (Coffey) should successfully C-B check a 6-weight 4-check player (Nemchinov), but not a 10-weight 2-check player (Shanahan), right?

Or, are the check-receiver's attributes more of a factor?

I think what I'm really asking is how do I know when to C-B check?

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1 hour ago, AdamWoodrow said:

Being newer to playing in the leagues, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the weight bug. I understand what it means, but I think I'm lost on how or if the checking rating applies. Which player types are more likely to have a successful C-B check? High weight, low check? High weight, high check? If I C-B check with a 9-weight and 2-check player, which attribute determines a successful check?

In theory, a 9-weight 2-check player (Coffey) should successfully C-B check a 6-weight 4-check player (Nemchinov), but not a 10-weight 2-check player (Shanahan), right?

Or, are the check-receiver's attributes more of a factor?

I think what I'm really asking is how do I know when to C-B check?

I'd say keep it simple and just reverse what you would do with a C check.  So if a player is 2 heavier than the player you want to check, use CB.  If he's 2 lighter, use C. 

If it's 1 difference, or the same, I'd use CB because I just feel it has a higher chance of success, but really you shouldn't expect a successful check either way.  You'd probably just want to b-check here.  ^_^

The checking rating has been found to influence AI behavior, but doesn't seem to be a factor in C checking.  High check rating makes the AI check more., and a few others, also feel that the check ratings somehow makes a CB more successful -- i.e. higher ratings helps success, but it shouldn't be the determining factor whether you should CB or C. Hope that helps.

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7 minutes ago, kingraph said:

I'd say keep it simple.....

:big_smile:

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I look at CHECK rating as another CPU controlled rating, like Offensive Awareness & Defensive Awareness.

The higher your guy's CHECK rating is, the more you will see him checking while under the CPU control.  Psychopaths like Ray Bourque will literally clear out areas as the CPU.  Some times as you are skating back after missing a goal, and trying to get back on defense, you'll find yourself just FLATTENED by the CPU as you pass him by way away from the play. 

 

If you were playing against your average defender, say Phil Housley, you'd have a ZERO percent change of experiencing this.
IF you happen to have the misfortune to have it be Ray Ray as you skated by, the odds are very high he'd be taking you out.

MOST believe this type of behavior leads to more penalties being called, as the player is involved in more checks & has more chances to crap out on those dice.

 

How this word "CHECK' effects your actual checking ability while under your control?  If it's a B check, ZERO.  If it's a C check, ZERO.

IF it's a C/B check and you are over 2 weight fatter than the guy you are trying to flatten, ZERO.

IF you are say weight 8, and your opponent is weight 7 or greater, then you are not 2 weight heavier, the math is not automatic.  SOME believe that "CHECK' rating can push you over the edge here on a close call when trying to C/B.  But again, at this stage, most guys are trying to use B check or something else.  Only the very stubborn are trying to C/B guys they shouldn't be.

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ALSO, for those wanting a FUN experiment, I recommend getting to NOSE and editing a team with these guys.

Ray Bourque & Scott Stevens for defense.
LW Lindros
C Messier
RW Tikkanen

 

You can also sub in Joel Otto as well here for Tikkanen if you wanted the full FAT effect.

Ray's check is 6.
The others are all 5's.

If you play against this lineup, just watch the carnage more than bother trying to play against it the first try.  Guys laid out every where.
ALSO, I recommend do this with penalties OFF or using Plablegs rom if you don't want 100 delays!

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One wrinkle to add to the past few messages...

If you are playing a ROM using the "Full" Weight Bug Fix (such as in Blitz league, and I assume VHL?), it incorporates the Checking rating into  the checking calculations, so it is advantageous to have a high.

Here is a description of how that works: http://forum.nhl94.com/index.php?/topic/8030-how-to-fix-the-weight-bug-gens/&tab=comments#comment-64859

 

(coming up on the 10th anniversary of the weight bug fix...)

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8 minutes ago, smozoma said:

(coming up on the 10th anniversary of the weight bug fix...)

Salute!:big_smile:

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2 hours ago, kingraph said:

I'd say keep it simple and just reverse what you would do with a C check.  So if a player is 2 heavier than the player you want to check, use CB.  If he's 2 lighter, use C. 

If it's 1 difference, or the same, I'd use CB because I just feel it has a higher chance of success, but really you shouldn't expect a successful check either way.  You'd probably just want to b-check here.  ^_^

But really, to keep it suuuuuper simple, can't you say:

If you want to C-check:

  • If you are using a light guy, use C only
  • If you are using a fat guy, do CB

(Not Sure what to do for in-betweeners, like 7-9 weight... B-check? Pray?)

I am not a good CB checker, but the above I can keep straight.  It is generally correct, right? (I know I am too old and dumb to do any quick math on the fly...)

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Even simpler, just b-check.  Works on everyone, lol. 

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58 minutes ago, aqualizard said:

But really, to keep it suuuuuper simple, can't you say:

If you want to C-check:

  • If you are using a light guy, use C only
  • If you are using a fat guy, do CB

(Not Sure what to do for in-betweeners, like 7-9 weight... B-check? Pray?)

I am not a good CB checker, but the above I can keep straight.  It is generally correct, right? (I know I am too old and dumb to do any quick math on the fly...)

Raph's is more effective. You need to take into account the weight of both the checker and the receiver. Sometimes it's better for light players to CB check and vice versa.

What if you have a 5 weighter and you come across a 3 weighter? You would want to B check or CB check instead of C check.

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1 hour ago, aqualizard said:

But really, to keep it suuuuuper simple, can't you say:

If you want to C-check:

  • If you are using a light guy, use C only
  • If you are using a fat guy, do CB

(Not Sure what to do for in-betweeners, like 7-9 weight... B-check? Pray?)

I am not a good CB checker, but the above I can keep straight.  It is generally correct, right? (I know I am too old and dumb to do any quick math on the fly...)

Playing Uncle Seth led me to believe when in doubt CB. Be warned, missing a C/CB check when you are in your zone on defense (not sure if that is correct hockey lingo) often has disastrous consequences.

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32 minutes ago, kylewat said:

 

Playing Uncle Seth led me to believe when in doubt CB. Be warned, missing a C/CB check when you are in your zone on defense (not sure if that is correct hockey lingo) often has disastrous consequences.

^^ I'm guilty of this. ^^

It is particularly lethal if your opponent is between the dots (prime scoring area) - you're better off holding, or b-checking - or better yet, grab your goalie!

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