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PlabaxV2

Plabax's Analyzation #1 - Weight Valued Too Much? (Weight Bug)

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#1 - *WEIGHT VALUED TOO MUCH?*

PART 1 - IS WEIGHT EVERYTHING??

Secret Insider Tip

In order to deliver a consistent, solid check you need to be 2 WEIGHT points lighter than your target. This seems to be a surprise to everyone when I mention it, but you can try it if you don't believe me. You can try checking Dallas Drake (4) with Theo Fleury (3) and you will see as Drake wont even budge for most of your attempts.

------------------------------------------------

In GDL X, I traded away a bunch of good picks like Sergei Fedorov for light unskilled players like Andrei Kovalenko because I thought he could just steamroll everybody and nobody could stop him. I was wrong :(

In NHL '94, there are other ways to get the puck that don't involve WEIGHT. You can either trip him using the "B" button, Hook/Hold him using the "A" button or you can try and get in the way of his stickhandling, but this one doesn't work as often. But here is the catch :

Secret Insider Tip - The "B" Check

Tripping somebody with the "B" button works no matter what WEIGHT you are, which is why it's so great. The "B" check is used by all the advanced players and it can knock down anybody even if you are Marty McSorley. So the question is :

Why is weight valued so much then???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secret Insider Tip - Gamechangers

In NHL '94, there is some sort of modifier that allows certain players to consistently shake off body checks and trips. I don't know what allows a player to do this, but this works regardless of your weight, and it's put in the game for the top players. Here is Steve Yzerman (6 Weight) trying to body check Ray Bourque (10 Weight) and failing to knock him down :

O4dlANe.png

I call all players with the ability to do this in NHL '94 game changers because there are just some times where you cant defend these guys.

PART 2 - IMPACT IN THE GENESIS DRAFT LEAGUE (DRAFT POSITIONS)

2.1 - Bad Draft Spots and Steals

GDL X had 24 coaches. In the first round you obviously draft your best player. What doesn't make sense to me is that some players are drafted WAY too early and some WAY too late. Some people waste their picks on someone who is not good because they are light.. Light Players aren't the key, skilled players are the key.

Example : GDL 9 - TomKabs won with Klima being his Game Changer over Carse who did not have one. Carse had the better "team", but in the end you simply can't stop Petr Klima and TomKabs with a bunch of light noobs and Eddie Belfour.

2.2 - PLAYERS TAKEN TOO EARLY

Peter Bondra (Top 20 1st Rounder) - This player is a goof. So overrated. Yeah he has 6 weight and 6 speed, cool, but he has a weak 3 in agility, He can't SHOOT or DEKE with the puck and he is not a GameChanger!! Don't waste your pick on this dude. He's worth getting in the 2nd round.

Brian Bradley (Top 20 1st Rounder) - A light player, who is SLOW. This guy is not giving anybody nightmares as he's very easy to defend if you are good with the "B" check. Another dude worth getting in the 2nd round.

Don Sweeney (1st Rounder) - A player who is only there to body check people, not worth it especially when all defensemen can B check the same.

Stephan Lebeau and his boyfriend Denis Savard (Top 5 2ND Rounders) - These guys are just light people who can dominate the likes of jer_33 and jaylighter420 because they aren't as advanced. When it comes to the big guns, they are just getting "B" checked and then you wonder why you didn't take Sergei Fedorov instead.

Andrei Kovalenko (Top 10 2nd Rounder) - A piece of s**t that just happened to look like a hockey player. Don't bother with this guy. Like Stephanie and Denise, he'll end up doing 0 if playing against a "B" check expert.

2.3 - PLAYERS TAKEN TOO LATE

Look who you can get with picks 10-20 in the SECOND ROUND OF GDL.

Mario Lemieux

Geoff Sanderson

Adam Oates

Tomas Sandstrom (Leading GDL in Goals and Points)

Steve Larmer

Ray Bourque

Esa Tikkanen

All these guys are much better than the likes of Denis Savard lol... Ray Bourque is easily the most underrated defensemen in the game. 99 Overall with a screaming shot who can also shake off checks.. It's kind of weird how heavily weight is valued even if some of the top players are heavier than 6 weight.

It has already been proved as TK won GDL with nobody lighter than 6 weight, and Raph is pooping in the mouth of everyone with Tomas Sandstrom who weighs more than an elephant, so I think we can agree here.

PART 3 - IMPACT IN THE CLASSIC LEAGUE

3.1 - Teams Aren't Being Used to Their Full Potential

Everyone complains about Chicago but like Icestorm likes to say, realistically how are they better than Detroit?

Roenick > Yzerman

Ciccarelli >>> Larmer

Fedorov >>> ???

Chelios > Lidstrom

Konstantinov = Smith/Russell

Belfour >>> Cheveldae - But with a skilled player, scoring on Belfour is like scoring on any other goalie and when you have 3 TOP 20 Players it should be no discussion.

The fact is Chicago seems to be so good because everybody is always subbing skillful players like Esa Tikkanen for people like Tony Amonte, or Eric Lindros for Pelle Eklund. This is why Blitz is much closer, as the skilled players are actually playing and then there is no more Tony Granato and Ted Donato as your "best" players.

The New York Rangers and the Philadelphia Flyers are actually very good teams, but nobody uses them because they don't have the 35 overall weight whores everybody wants to use with the weight bug.

Look how the Canadiens are being used, these guys never win the A league because it's not a serious team at the end of the day. Savard-Lebeau-Damphousse? :haha: Try switching one of those goofs for Kirk Muller or something so you can have a one-timer king on your line. I'm telling you, you guys should try using some skilled players and you will see that they really aren't as bad as we are all making them out to be.

3.2 - Carse is Always Winning With Stacked, Light Teams

This is because most of his opponents aren't crazy "B" checkers. When you are going against an offensive master in Carse who is coming up the ice with Pavel Bure and Cliff Ronning and all you are doing is mashing the C button hoping to knock down Pavel Bure until Carse has already scored 10 goals on you and ends up sweeping the finals for his 2901st classic title in a row, it's because you actually can't stop light players unless you "B" check.

This is where it comes in, TK and NYR forced a Game 7 against Carse and VAN because he knows the proper techniques to stop a light superstar, which seems to be rare especially when it comes to the classic league. So what if TK still ended up losing, he ended up improving enough to take down Carse's heavily favoured GDL 9 team in 6 games... B CHECK IS THE KEY! Learn it so you can open your mind to new '94 Players :)

Fall Classic is upcoming guys, so LEARN YOUR PLAYERS AND NOT JUST THEIR WEIGHTS! I don't like myself how I subbed Sergei Fedorov for Dallas Drake with Detroit. It's not necessary to rely on body checks when your biggest challenge will end up "B" checking you!

End of Analyzation 1

Edited by PlabaxV2

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Great write up. Definitely good points having a skilled fatty mixed in with lighter guys.

The B check is the great weight neuteralizer when playing DEFENSE. However, you are succeptibe to all checking types when heavier with the puck.

This is first GDL season I've had a F >7 weight and TBH, I wouldnt trade Hull for just about anyone outside the top 10. He definitely provides great balance centering a skilled scorer/passer in #91 and a plugger in Emerson.

Oh ya, also have a 9 dman in Calle. Been MUCH better then i thought.

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My starting line up in GDL are all 228 lbs ,they were a lot of fun to play with cause of there ratings but when I played carse it was very tough, cause at times I had 4 guys laying on the ice haha.Couldve definitely used lebeau instead of jagr and maybe a lidstrom instead of stevens. Next season I guess.
Good write up plabax

Edited by hokkeefan

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One thing to remember is that lighter players are quicker. They accelerate faster and I think turn better.

Also, a C check has better reach (when you're C-checking, you're frozen, aren't you? so you can't B check until the check is complete? I could be wrong). In weight bug fixed, it's funny using Bourque and C checking and taking the guy out with the tail end of the check, miles away from where you pressed the C button.

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I'm pretty sure your so-called "game changers" all have 5 or higher agility, right? I've always had trouble (defensively) and success (offensively) checking/avoiding checks with high agility guys because they just toddle and don't fall.

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Yes C checking is easier.. But when you sub Esa Tikkanen for Tony Amonte, it wont do you better because against someone who can B check, I can guarantee Amonte will score less than Tikkanen would. But yeah I see also that heavier guys do move slower.

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Secret Insider Tip - Gamechangers

In NHL '94, there is some sort of modifier that allows certain players to consistently shake off body checks and trips. I don't know what allows a player to do this, but this works regardless of your weight, and it's put in the game for the top players. Here is Steve Yzerman (6 Weight) trying to body check Ray Bourque (10 Weight) and failing to knock him down :

I'm pretty sure your so-called "game changers" all have 5 or higher agility, right? I've always had trouble (defensively) and success (offensively) checking/avoiding checks with high agility guys because they just toddle and don't fall.

nope. it's stick handling. all 5 stick handlers do it and 4 stick handlers in a good day.

This was already found 9-10 years ago.

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nope. it's stick handling. all 5 stick handlers do it and 4 stick handlers in a good day.

This was already found 9-10 years ago.

Fedorov and savard are nortorius for toddling lol love the term VC

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Yes C checking is easier.. But when you sub Esa Tikkanen for Tony Amonte, it wont do you better because against someone who can B check, I can guarantee Amonte will score less than Tikkanen would. But yeah I see also that heavier guys do move slower.

Do people even pick Amonte high up? Seems like a 7th rounder to me. They're not comparable players. 6 weight isn't a weight bugger. 6-7 is average.

People typically pick weight and speed as their main attributes -- Tikk is a very good skater. If he were a 4 like Amonte, people wouldn't care much about him.

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Great stuff!

Couple of quick thoughts as I read through this:

* The B-check IS the ultimate equalizer, but that doesn't mean that weight doesn't matter. B-check is a skill that requires you to set up and time it right. Some guys (like TK and kgman) are extremely good at b-check defense and one of the things that makes them such great players. C-check allows you to hit someone from behind, into the boards, longer range, CPU players, etc. Like Ice said, if you have a fat guy, you're limited to b-check, but it's nice to have that C option.

* swos said it -- stick handling. Allows a player to toddle, lol. Agility is important for that shiftiness, avoiding direct contact, which players like Carse are experts. Quickly turning away or at different angles to avoid checks is a great skill.

* No reason to call out JayLighter & jer_33. Those are two of the coolest buds in the community. Low class move.

* Sounds like you're going to have a hokkee-like fat team in GDL 11. GALUCK!

* Not sure what the CHI/DET section has to do with weight, however, everyone pretty much agrees that CHI and DET are #1 and #2, or even #1A. As you mentioned -- at the "A" level of play, the Belfour factor is mitigated (still a factor). But for the majority of players, the everyday players, Belfour becomes insanely valuable. That's why CHI is considered to be #1 over DET. And the value of the #3 F is not significant enough. In this way, DET is almost TOO stacked at F. Fedorov, Drake, Yseabart are all superfluous.

* MTL went to the finals in Fall'09 and Spring'11. They're good!

* Nobody uses NYR or PHI because there are better teams.

* Pretty sure Carse's opponents have heard of the B-check. :lol:

At the end of the day, a coaches skill level far outweighs any differences in players. TK won GDL and almost won Classic because he's a damn good player, and not because Petr Klima was better than Kovalenko/LeBeau. Carse doesn't make 3 straight GDL finals, Blitz, classic, etc because his opponents don't know how to b-check him. It's because he's a damn good player. Same with Freydey, swos, AJ, etc. A good player can be competitive with just about any team. Hell, Zalex took Tampa Bay to a 22-17-1 record in Classic A.

Like you said, LEARN YOUR PLAYERS AND NOT JUST THEIR WEIGHTS! This is most important! I tried telling this to Seth a few times after he played Hawerchuck at C with Buffalo. I told him Hawerchuck has a 3/1 shot, probably the worst place to put him is C. It's the main thing preventing him from getting better.

Interestingly, from the small sample I got from my GENS Player Attribute Survey, Speed was determined to be the most important factor in F, followed by weight. Defensemen was weight. However, according the GDL draft, weight is still most important. Tough to say if we "overvalue" it, but I still think Eklund is more effective than Lindros, Amonte more than Messier, Donato more than Neely. You can still use those guys, but you have to be smart about it, and adjust your game accordingly.

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I'm loving the concept of this new portion of the forum here, it will raise a lot of debate, for instance...

I tend to agree more with Raphs ananlyztion than Plabax's analyzation abut player weight/skill.

Learning about your players is very important, but what's more important is self analyzation. Without that, you can only go so far in league play. For instance, you claim Esa Tikkanen is a better pick than Brian Bradley or Peter Bondra and I strongly disagree with that. Sure, weight plays a factor in the equation but you also have to look at the actual skills of the player not just the overall rating. Aside from Tikkanen's speed, he does not possess a specialty skill (anything 5 or higher). To further compound that problem he has a horrible 4/2 shot and hes a worthless C checker in open ice since there are very few 11+ weight players who ever touch the ice. Shot accuracy is very important to me if a guy is heavy, by definition, heavier guys get fewer chances, therefore they need to capitalize on a higher percentage. A 4/2 shot isn't what I'm looking for.

On the other hand, Brian Bradley has 4 weight and a 4/5 shot. Yeah, his skating is only 4/3, but he doesnt need the speed to be effective, especially in a one-timer heavy offense. In one-timer heavy offenses, the wings do most of the puck lugging and distributing, On the other hand, Bradley likely wont be as effective a player when it comes to offenses relying on the center doing a lot of 1 on 1 moves, teams that rely on that should really shy away from a guy like Bradley. As for Bondra, he is frustratingly similar to Tikkanen, except Bondra is faster with 6 speed, lighter with 6 weight, and has what I believe to be the better shot at 3/4. Yes, Bondra is overrated a lot of the time, but he still can be a 1 on 1 weapon and has just enough shooting prowess to deposit some one-timers, where as Tikkanen is proficient at neither.

Other guys you list (Larmer, Sanderson, and to a lesser extent Oates) are all good players, but nowhere near spectacular. Larmer and Sanderson have 4 ratings across the board, steady, but nothing spectacular. Guys like Savard and Kovalenko have mostly 4 ratings and are much lighter, therefore they are more unique players who take more skill to stop.

Without going into great detail about every player, I'll try to wrap up my point here. Don't over value guys based purely on their weight (Leeman, Emerson, Donato) but also don't overvalue guys because of their overall (Tikkanen, Larmer, Oates). Try to find guys that have a good balance of both for your play style and your lineup construction. If I love bombing the one timers, I want a stud goal scorer in the middle supported by light guys on the wings who can dish the puck (<6 weight, 4/4 or above skating and passing). If I like to distribute my offense evenly, I'm going to get players who can both score and pass even if they are heavy (Carson, Sandstrom, Hull, etc.,), and lastly, if I like to run around the ice like a maniac, checking players and counter attacking like a fiend, then I'l get some Kovalaenkos, Ronnings, and Savards.

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people still play with the weight bug?

please shorten the name of this section to just "Plabax's anal."

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people still play with the weight bug?please shorten the name of this section to just "Plabax's anal."

This must be one of those 'misunderstanding' times for Trudatman. Sure seems like trolling and instigating, but I could be wrong.

Plabax put a lot of thought and time into this post and has solicited the same from others. But alas, jackass trudatman decides to chime in.

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Hell, Zalex took Tampa Bay to a 22-17-1 record in Classic A.

AJ also won Blitz 1 with leftover players after the draft, plus being forced to keep a bunch of TB players (so began the legend of Kontos)

but I still think Eklund is more effective than Lindros

Eklund is great. My secret weapon in my first GDL season. Always so annoyed that Carse would pick him before I could get him in later drafts.

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I'm loving the concept of this new portion of the forum here, it will raise a lot of debate, for instance...

Learning about your players is very important, but what's more important is self analyzation. Without that, you can only go so far in league play. For instance, you claim Esa Tikkanen is a better pick than Brian Bradley or Peter Bondra and I strongly disagree with that. Sure, weight plays a factor in the equation but you also have to look at the actual skills of the player not just the overall rating.

Much agreed - its much more important for one to self analyze players based on their own styles, expectations and needs aka good chemistry.

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hey, IceHole123456789101112 (I guess the rest of the IceHoles were already taken),

please keep me on ignore and resist the urge to click on the "show" button or whatever we have here. my post contained two jokes. get mad about it. go beat your family or something. throw a controller at your screen. smash the keyboard. whatever, just forget I exist.

if you can't comprehend the jokes, here's the breakdown to help them compute: Plaby put lots of effort into this post/thread and he's a bit intense/anal. Angry also puts a lot of effort into his analysis. the weight fix hasn't eliminated the playing of the original, just like not everybody plays the superior version on the SNES. to each theirs, but if you have dogshit for breakfast and I know about it, I reserve the right to tease you about it and suggest a piece of fruit. I thought the jokes were silly and obvious. you may be less than intelligent.

I put to you that the real trolling is following me around, revealing my previously hidden posts and getting all worked up about them and then posting counterproductive responses. a mature way to handle it would be to (not) laugh and move on. I frequent message boards run by teenagers that are better moderators than you are. gather up all of your moderating powers and ban me if I'm such a blight on the community. even though I give the "other side" a steady ribbing, I figure I'm better liked around here than you are. is the idea of revealing my posts and responding all "whaa" to make yourself look better by comparison? it's not working. you are still an IceHole.

work on your happiness and spend less time being concerned with me.

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Trudatman -

You be sure to let the guy from the magazine know how awful the Gens version is when you do your interview..........................oh & that you never play in any leagues but are still an authority on the game.

Yawn. Troll on

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if I don't play online I must not enjoy the game? is that your point? thanks for chiming in. it was... uh... something.

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blah blah

If you don't like the Genesis game, how about not posting in threads about it? It's like because you think you're a good person and you've made a ROM, it's fine for you to pop into every other thread and complain about the weight bug. It's not. Stop it. It's clearly not appreciated, and is a negative contribution to the world.

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if I don't play online I must not enjoy the game? is that your point? thanks for chiming in. it was... uh... something.

No that wasn't my point...................you may be less than intelligent.

Point is you're full of opinions without expert knowledge. First of all, any SNES player claiming the GENS version to be terrible is clearly wrong. Here we are 20 years later & it's still being played. Likewise any GENS player claiming the SNES version to be terrible is equally wrong for the same reason. These games have lived on all this time precisely because they're obviously amazing. Just accept that one Trudatman can't win this argument against a game that consistently proves him wrong year after year.

Secondly, i'm doubting your expert knowledge of the GENS game, or the gameplay with the weight bug, because A) You obviously don't play the GENS version and B ) You certainly don't play it against other people so you have no idea of the impact it has on the game. It was an unintended error certainly, but it adds a unique tactical element to the game which, once again, is still being discussed & debated right here in this very thread 20 years after the game was released.

Clearly the GENS version is excellent. Clearly the weight bug adds something rather than takes away like you wish was the case. It plays brilliantly. That's why it's a brilliant game, not because the weight effect is correct or not.

I don't comment on the SNES version because I don't have an in-depth knowledge of it. I haven't spent hundreds of hours playing it to death to find all the hidden elements of it's gameplay & I certainly haven't experienced the differences between playing the computer & playing another human being on the SNES version. When you have all of that knowledge about the GENS version & can also prove 20 years of history & success wrong, feel free to "chime in".

Back when I was a mod there was a serious discussion about what your worth was to this community i.e. Some SNES rom updates vs endless trolling & boring the hell out of everyone, without exception in the entire community, except yourself. Strangely I remember being a rare voice coming down on your side.........................I think the time has come to discuss that again.

Is there anyone more worthless online than a troll? Someone who has to seek negative attention to fill the void left by human contact & positive attention. I'd feel sorry for you, but i've been here too long for that.

Edited by LA Robbie

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If you don't like the Genesis game, how about not posting in threads about it? It's like because you think you're a good person and you've made a ROM, it's fine for you to pop into every other thread and complain about the weight bug. It's not. Stop it. It's clearly not appreciated, and is a negative contribution to the world.

An error occurred

You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

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Back when I was a mod there was a serious discussion about what your worth was to this community i.e. Some SNES rom updates vs endless trolling & boring the hell out of everyone, without exception in the entire community, except yourself. Strangely I remember being a rare voice coming down on your side.........................I think the time has come to discuss that again.

Yeah I don't know how people deal with him. It never used to bother me but now that I've been around for a while I am sick of reading his trash. I agree, I think it's time someone makes a hokkee style movement about trudatman, only to ban him instead of unbanning him. 1645 posts and he's added nothing to this community other than consistent annoyance.

Your weight bug jokes weren't funny 3 years ago man, enough. There was an interesting discussion going on, but of course you felt the need to hijack your 500th thread.

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Smoz: it's not that I don't like it. I just don't like it as much. that has little to do with the derailment of this thread (got you back, I guess, Plaby). I made a couple of jokes. the clowns chimed in to take and make it personal. this whole site is set up with the dichotomy, but just like the two-party system in US politics, it's a false choice and the two major sides aren't all that different. I have some fun with that, sure, but it doesn't relate to the fun I was having here. I vote Green/Rainbow and I support greater examination of the PC/CD versions of our common interest. I have played the two more popular versions with real-life friends for decades and I have a preference that makes for a good running joke here in our online sandbox. everybody takes it too personally and that makes it even funnier.

Robbie: I'm not intentionally trolling and I do have plenty of experience with the Republicans, er, I mean the Genesis version. I could lay out my reasoning again, but I'll spare you the embarrassment. I think it is wildly ironic that I'm considered to be underinformed and inexperienced because I don't play online. I still fail to see what that has to do with anything. I don't claim to be the best '94 player in the world and I just don't see how any other thing relates. I am very much misunderstood here, but that is often the case because I don't pussyfoot around and I don't care if feelings get hurt unintentionally. if your ego is fragile, it's not my problem until you insist that it be. in the NorthEast of the USA (where I'm from), "go fuck yourself" is often nearer the start of a conversation than the end. in the South, however, it is much more preferred to placate a face and shittalk a back. that's not how I operate. now, please get over it/me. I'm not that interesting.

Tom: I felt no need other to defend my intentions when others (like yourself) jumped in to turn my innocent post into some sort of crime. I dare anybody who believes what you claim to go through my entire posting history and tally the silliness from the helpful. just try to do it in an honest fashion. know your biases like I own mine. y'all color me wrongly.

on topic: weight is important, but agility and stickhandling are crucial for those of us who turn away from checks and work a possession game. still, it's hard to put the puck in the net if a heavy (light - bugged) dude is all over you with the speedburst check. does tripping get called as much in the Genesis version as it does in the SENS version? I use a lot of pokecheck, but I also get sent to the box a lot for it. any thoughts?

Edited by trudatman

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Trudatman - This is a simple fact: Whatever your own self-image may be, there is NOT ONE SINGLE MEMBER in this entire community that doesn't think you're just a troll. NOT A SINGLE ONE

While i'm sure a few have downloaded your rom updates I guarantee you will not find one single member who thinks you add anything positive or constructive outside those roms. NOT A A SINGLE ONE

You need a serious reality check if you don't think that every single member of the community hates your constant hijacking of GENS threads to complain about the weight bug.

You seriously are the one single person here who believes you add something positive to the community.

If you think i'm incorrect, or being a bully or something post a poll on the forum. I 100% guarantee you won't get a single vote of support from any member. NOT A SINGLE ONE

As Smoz said.Just stop it. No one wants it.

Edited by LA Robbie

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but just like the two-party system in US politics, it's a false choice

I vote Green/Rainbow

Robbie: I'm not intentionally trolling and I do have plenty of experience with the Republicans, er, I mean the Genesis version.

in the NorthEast of the USA (where I'm from), "go fuck yourself" is often nearer the start of a conversation than the end.

in the South, however, it is much more preferred to placate

Whose gonna take the bait?

This will be great!

Can we get a politics thread going?

Please generalize some more about people and the different parts of the country.

So Genesis = Republicans

SNES must = Democrat

False choice (your words)

What do Green Rainbows play?

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It amazes me how trudatman tries to convince others that his comments are "jokes" and not "trolls".

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My fault guys for biting on this troll. Sorry to feed his enjoyment on negative energy.

I'll bring up this issue with the other Mods. Seems like there's a good number of guys out there that don't enjoy the trolling.

Let's get back to this great topic Plabax started.

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I agree that Weight is valued too much. I prefer a skilled team with a decent power and accurate shot for center (at least a 4/5), and good off awareness guys and passing on the wings. Oh, and at least a 4/4 for speed/agility. I tend to prefer a weight around 6 or 7, as I think this is kind of a "middle ground" in the weight category.

And I love the B check. It is really my only equalizer against heavy (or light in original) teams. When I find myself getting frustrated (which is every game since I tend to lose a lot) I start getting carried away with C checks, and my guys normally suck at checking.

There's nothing like clogging up the slot waiting for the other guy to come in and try to deke his way to scoring and being able to throw up a B check and stop him in his tracks.

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