IAmFleury'sHipCheck

What attribute contributes towards injuries?

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I don't think we ever figured this one out.

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I always just assumed the toughness rating dictated how often a player got injured. derp.

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the toughness rating? the whatnow?

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I mean roughness, my bad.

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there is no such attribute.

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I've found it's the player's position on the ice that determines his chance of seeing stars, not the player's attributes.

Guys like Roenick & Fleury in GENS, who are always taking hits while they shoot, get knocked out more because they are always standing in front of the net. Their light weight makes you as a coach take the player into more hazardous positions more frequently and they can successfully get deeper into their shots because of their ability to stand up from side checks, etc.

Seems to me, more times than not, it's a defensemen lunging into you while your stick is at the top of a shot, but not the only position you get them from.

I've found I get this injury with fat Iafrate as much as Hull as much as anyone I attack the net with. I've never seen someone get hurt WITHOUT the puck though.

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It could be totally random. Like every time there is a hit there's a small x% chance that the player will get hurt, then maybe another x% that it will be 1 period vs a game injury.

It also seems the checks into the boards never result in injuries, so that would make me think it would be for open ice hits only, which would also make me think that the chances of it happening are independent of player stats. Who knows though, I'm just guessing based on my experience.

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I mean roughness, my bad.

It's been determined that "roughness" isn't a real stat. The stat you're referring to has been proven to determine a player's shooting/passing bias when playing as an AI. Higher number = more likely to shoot.

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Weight difference, speed and timing seem to be what determines an injury. I usually find that my guys get hurt when I try to get to fancy skating in for a deke. As for the period/game injury, I do believe that's totally random.

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you can get injured in the wide open or next to the net or near the boards. you can be so close to the boards that your sprawled limbs overlap the boards. I don't figure it's any different on the systems other than SNES. this is a great topic and I hope we eventually get an ASM expert to spill the guts of the game for us.

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Since i started playing weight bug fixed leagues/ROMS this past month, I've seen heavy guys getting hurt as much or more than the light weight guys, which has altered my perception of the injury equation.

I had originally thought the light guys got hurt more, but now I believe its related to them having the puck more and moving towards the defenders.

In SNES, & GENS weight-bug fixed leagues, heavy guys hold the puck more often, as they are less likely to get knocked down. And, you have to have the puck to get injured. In normal GENS, light weight players have the puck, so they are the ones getting hurt more, as they have more opportunities to have the "dice come up craps" on their hits received.

That said, I have not seen an injury I remember from behind, and don't recall one from the side. It's usually head on or an angle close to head on that I get the injury, which is why I think you don't see many "into the board" knockouts.

They look menacing, but they don't have that head on aspect required to get the KO. Could be me, but I notice more knockouts when hit with the stick fully raised.

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you can get injured in the wide open or next to the net or near the boards. you can be so close to the boards that your sprawled limbs overlap the boards. I don't figure it's any different on the systems other than SNES. this is a great topic and I hope we eventually get an ASM expert to spill the guts of the game for us.

Yeah you can get injured from an open-ice hit near the boards or anywhere. I was talking specifically about when you check a guy INTO the boards. The hits where the guy gets smashed into the boards (different animation) never end in an injury.

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Yeah you can get injured from an open-ice hit near the boards or anywhere. I was talking specifically about when you check a guy INTO the boards. The hits where the guy gets smashed into the boards (different animation) never end in an injury.

Hmmm, I have to keep an eye out for this. I feel like I've seen this happen, and I'm particularly remembering 2v2 games where this would result in 472892 replays.

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I agree with Bo, I've never seen that. And they are always vertical when they get hurt, most board checks are horizontal.

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Back in the late 90s/early 00s, I used to keep manual stats written down and from what I recall, there are some injury patterns. Those patterns are most apparent by the guys who commit the injuries. Matvichuk (sp?) being one of the most consistent guys to injure other players. I'm going to have to dig around to find my archives of these old stats kept in these leagues to confirm.

However, we should think about starting a thread that anyone can log from any match, players that were hurt and who hurt them, plus if that player were hurt for a game or period. I would be more than happy to keep a running tally based on the inputs on that thread to see if a pattern develops.

Do you guys think that could be interesting or not worth it? Lemme know!

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You would need to log 10,000 games for the data to start to be a relevant sample size given the apparent randomness that currently appears to be there, and would need to intentionally using all the players to skate w/ the puck.

For me, you play with the same guys more times than not, and you check with the same guys more times, both in terms of carry the puck & trying to knock a guy down.

So, it would make sense that a pattern of guys injured & guys doing the maiming would develop anyhow.

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That said, even if not truly statistically relevant, it would be a LOT OF FUN to post injuries & who knocked them out & for how long on a thread, and of course who your opponent you crunched was :)

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Well I do have a surprising number of games logged b/w my friend and myself from back in the day... not 10,000 but probably in the range of at least 2,000. I understand what you're saying about using players evenly but that's what makes it even more interesting. For example, Matvichuk is not a player I use that often, yet in several of my seasons, he was the leading ass kicker by far. Weird.

In fact, it was a worthy stat to keep b/c we made rules that guys who accumulated enough injuries throughout the season would have to sit out for the remainder. It was all calculated using a point system. Period injuries = 1 pt. Game injury 1st pd = 3 pts; 2nd pd = 2 pts; 3rd pd = 1 pts. I can't remember exactly but I think any player who got injured enough to total 10 points got sat until playoffs. Pretty significant since there were over 150 games each season.

But I'm glad you agree, I think it would be fun to keep a running tally of injuries on a thread. I can keep a running tally in an excel spreadsheet and post periodic updates.

Might be worth it's own category on the forums, I'll reach out to an admin to see if I can get that started.

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I think there is this magic spot where people get injured. I think it 93 and 94. On the blue line, parallel to the left offisides dot, while breaking the puck out. May just be coincidence

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Weight difference, speed and timing seem to be what determines an injury. I usually find that my guys get hurt when I try to get to fancy skating in for a deke. As for the period/game injury, I do believe that's totally random.

I think timing is crucial here. When the hit is done from the right angle, almost face to face, the probability of getting injured raises too.

I think there is an injury factor for every player/team in the game somewhere. Whenever I play against Hartford, its guys from the best line get injured extremely often. I remember a 5 mins period match when I injured three Hartford guys once and one two times and usually they got at least two guys injured, no matter if playing against Whalers or coach them. Chicago guys seem to me more vulnerable too. Talking about SNES version.

I think there is this magic spot where people get injured. I think it 93 and 94. On the blue line, parallel to the left offisides dot, while breaking the puck out. May just be coincidence

Never realized this before and I agree.

I am going to make stats about this like Brutus suggested. Plus write down every game when no injury will occur.

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A friend and I have just started a season where we've re-drafted and re-assigned 24 teams using '94 Sega CD (5 forwards, 3 def, 1 goalie) and play with line changes off. We're keeping track of about every stat we can. We are into week 4. Each of my teams (I have 12 and he has 12) plays each of his teams. If a player ever gets injured we use dice to determine if it is a multi-game injury.

It seems to me that Gartner and Roenick get injured the most. We are now going to keep track of how many times any player gets hurt and who did the injuring.

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I've mentioned it before, but it bares reminding.

If Roenick carries the puck for you 20 times longer than the next player on a given team because he is light, can take a check, has a great shot & has great stick handling, so it makes sense to try to have the puck in his possession as often as possible, it ALSO means he is going to BE CHECKED the most.

The most "checked against" is also the most dice rolled against, and then likely, the most KO'd.

Also, some guys tend to get their biggest hits with the same defensemen, over & over, so it would also make sense that the more dice rolled for them to be the guy giving the KO, the more likely they would be to lead in that stat.

Another point, is a coach's playing style. For example, Ray Bourque is rarely complained about "bleeding out" on the ice, but when he plays for ME, he probably leads the league by a LOT! Reason, I love to try to raise his stick high OFTEN, and BOOM! my blue line slap shots between your goalie's teenie tiny little balls! But, more times than not, Ray ends up on his backside looking up at the rafters.

That said, I'm not discounting DATA accumulated, but stating it does need asterisks attached until you get enough guys verifying it's the same for them, imo. BUT, I've come to believe it's all in each time you get knocked down on a BIG hit, there is a dice roll to determine if it's a KO, and if it is, then another dice for whether it's for a period or a gamer.

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Whats weird is Mogilny NEVER gets knocked out of the game, always for a period.

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Yeah, that's my favorite "goofy" thing of last season, is you had Mogs, and all season he got knocked down plenty, and even knocked out for a period a bunch of times in our exi's, whatever, but NOT ONCE for a full game.

When I had Mogs during Classic, I don't recall having that luck. I think I had a few times I lost him for the game.

Perhaps turning away from the hit as you do so well limits the FULL IMPACT style KO required for a "gamer" KO.

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Great, please collect as much data as possible! Checks against is actually a stat that's in the game (thanks smozoma!) and can be extracted from the savestate. We don't know if it's possible to track injuries from a savestate vs manually. Injury per check against is what Brutus is eluding to, I believe. It'd be good to see what players have a high vs low injury per check against, and maybe what attributes they have in common. Another factor is the checking player. Do certain players inflict injury more than others? Do certain coaches?

Best thing we can try to do (aside from what D-Hizzle is doing) is to figure out if the game keeps tracks of injuries in the game. That way we can have seasons' worth of data. I'll add it to my 512391 things I want to do with '94 when I get time.

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I've mentioned it before, but it bares reminding.

If Roenick carries the puck for you 20 times longer than the next player on a given team because he is light, can take a check, has a great shot & has great stick handling, so it makes sense to try to have the puck in his possession as often as possible, it ALSO means he is going to BE CHECKED the most.

The most "checked against" is also the most dice rolled against, and then likely, the most KO'd.

Also, some guys tend to get their biggest hits with the same defensemen, over & over, so it would also make sense that the more dice rolled for them to be the guy giving the KO, the more likely they would be to lead in that stat.

Another point, is a coach's playing style. For example, Ray Bourque is rarely complained about "bleeding out" on the ice, but when he plays for ME, he probably leads the league by a LOT! Reason, I love to try to raise his stick high OFTEN, and BOOM! my blue line slap shots between your goalie's teenie tiny little balls! But, more times than not, Ray ends up on his backside looking up at the rafters.

That said, I'm not discounting DATA accumulated, but stating it does need asterisks attached until you get enough guys verifying it's the same for them, imo. BUT, I've come to believe it's all in each time you get knocked down on a BIG hit, there is a dice roll to determine if it's a KO, and if it is, then another dice for whether it's for a period or a gamer.

This is a good point. Over at tecmobowl.org there are the same conversations about what causes fumbling and injuries etc. People would talk about how Okoye fumbles more than other players.

But there is a a guy named "bruddog" over there who is pretty good at figuring out the code of the game. He did find the Okoye fumble stats were the same as others, but since he can break more tackles than other players he is more likely to be tackled inbounds, which means more opportunities to fumble.

My guess it's just a random # for all players. Every time you get laid out it does a probability of an injury.

But if you just took stats from my games, Lindros always gets injured. :)

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This is a good point. Over at tecmobowl.org there are the same conversations about what causes fumbling and injuries etc. People would talk about how Okoye fumbles more than other players.

But there is a a guy named "bruddog" over there who is pretty good at figuring out the code of the game. He did find the Okoye fumble stats were the same as others, but since he can break more tackles than other players he is more likely to be tackled inbounds, which means more opportunities to fumble.

My guess it's just a random # for all players. Every time you get laid out it does a probability of an injury.

But if you just took stats from my games, Lindros always gets injured. :)

Get Trucked by the Nigerian Nightmare

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Perhaps turning away from the hit as you do so well limits the FULL IMPACT style KO required for a "gamer" KO.

Yes, I'm pretty sure turning away from the hit helps. Certainly reduces the chances of injury in the first place (not sure about game vs period)

Anyway, here's a bunch of KO clips in case anyone can see a pattern. The CPU really loves skating north/south... (starting at 2:27)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyYwEXRUYE8#t=2m27s

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Anyway, here's a bunch of KO clips in case anyone can see a pattern. The CPU really loves skating north/south... (starting at 2:27)

Yeah, we need more clips like this. I think I do see patterns, all of which were mentioned above. But I would like to have hundreds of knockouts to analyze to draw real conclusions. I do see:

1. only puck carriers get KOed

2. victims are skating vertically at time of impact (north or south)

3. the checker (usually) are NOT skating vertically at impact

One thing I wonder is, does the CPU ever deliver a knockout, or only coach controlled checkers?

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