Brutus

The challenge that is SNES94

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Having played both versions long enough now, I feel qualified to RANT about some SNES issues.

My SNES rants:

#1 Penalties on, switching to the goalie and ramming into guys is an effective strategy to creating penalties. ( cosmic gay).

#2 Manual control of the cube block of a goalie is difficult to actually stop pucks (admitted by all but Fank), and more effective to actually try to do #1 above than go for the puck itself. (lame gay)

#3 When you get plastered to the ice w/ a big check, you can pop up and hold your opponent. (fruity gay)

#4 Suddenly a guy (sometimes even a small guy), goes into beast mode, god mode, call it what you will, but you can check this guy 6-7 times w/ all different kinds of guys (bigger, smaller, whatever), and he’s holding the puck, remaining standing, and 9 out of 10 times, going in to score. He doesn’t “leave beast mode” until you shoot or pass the puck w/ the guy, and until then, or the period ending, there is no getting the puck from the guy/demi-god. (uber gay)

#5 The “randomness” that goes into whether a guy can knock someone down. I’ve got moments where Lindros and his fat arse can’t be knocked down by anyone, taking 10 plus non-B checks in a row, and then the next period, the littlest guys in the game are checking him down from all over. Likewise, suddenly, your best checking defender can’t knock down ANY of the other team’s forwards because it’s randomly your turn to give up 4-5 goals.

For me, #5 is the one I’d like to talk about. IN Gens, the actual code was stripped down, and you could see the rules. IF a guy is a certain weight below or above the guy you are checking, he can be successfully knocked down. So, in a ROM w/ weight fixed, fat arses like McSorley are wrecking machines. They are obviously slower because of their weight, but the value you are looking for is the KNOWN check value. In SNES, I have McSorley, and he some times is a wrecking machine, and SOME times is a total pussy. In GENS, he’s always a wrecking machine w/ weight bug fixed.

So we did a draft for SDL (Snes Draft League), and HALF of the attributes didn’t matter that mattered because half the time they work, and the other half of the time, well they go gay/missing, and it’s got me calling SNES gay. I enjoy the penalties off version of SNES for Puck Dynasty, because then it’s only half the gay and removes the goalie penalty crap.

Has anyone looked at the inner code of SNES to see what makes it so "random"? Is it maybe some momentum factor that makes one player useless and another so great suddenly? Maybe the momentum is on roids and we could try an edited version of the SNES ROM w/ no momentum to see if it "fixed" some of the gayness.

Obviously, GENS had several patches used to correct weight and Y button for goalie and a few other options, so maybe SNES is in need of this option.

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I think Bo mentioned it once, the attributes don't seem to matter as much in SNES. There really does seem to be less variety among players. I appreciate and understand that statement the more I play SNES myself.

In regards to checking, I would bet speed is a factor. Phil Housley is a beast for me so far (unexpected)...he seems to be able to knock anyone down if it's lined up correctly and he's going fast. I think the advantage to the heavier guys is they don't need as much momentum to check...they can do it close range.

Aside from Bo, I don't know any other GENS guy that picked up SNES and didn't flip out. Maybe AJ too. It's really not easy. And as frustrating as all that crap can be, it's just a matter of accepting that it's part of the SNES game and somehow adjusting to those nuances. I know my first few games back were incredibly frustrating too...but I gotta remember to consider myself a newb in SNES and try to get into competitive shape by the playoffs.

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Oh boy - sh!tstorm thread ACTIVATE

Nicely done Brutus

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It's not a "speed" thing, cause these checks are the ones from stand still I'm talking about.

I initially thought it was the light guys only going crazy WHEN they had that running start, but it's not that.

Randomly, the other team suddenly can check the hell out of me, or not get knocked down ( you saw this yourself when Reichel went goofy).

There is something else inside the code looking for other variables and ONLY at certain times because I've had entire games where Lindros dominated by being unable to get knocked down, and other games where he was so bad I just benched him because a slow player that can't take a check is useless in SNES.

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So Brutus' main frustration seems to be the variability of the way the players perform according to their stats. While I am aware that the stats have a random fluctuation from game to game, to be honest I don't really mind it. When you think about it, it seems like an effort to add a little bit of realism to the game. In the sense that in the real world, people go through their ups and downs, have their highs and lows. Be it medical, emotional, chemical (substance abuse is obviously rampant in this league) and all of that will result in some uneven performances. So when you make the comparison to Gens where the players and their performances are constantly the same, I actually don't think that's so great.

As for the 'holding' to get up from a hit, I think that's actually a really important part of the game because of how ridiculously easy it is to knock someone off their feet in the first place. These seem like two grossly unbalanced areas of the game that sort of almost balance when put together. So i'm ok with this one too...

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So Brutus' main frustration seems to be the variability of the way the players perform according to their stats. While I am aware that the stats have a random fluctuation from game to game, to be honest I don't really mind it. When you think about it, it seems like an effort to add a little bit of realism to the game. In the sense that in the real world, people go through their ups and downs, have their highs and lows. Be it medical, emotional, chemical (substance abuse is obviously rampant in this league) and all of that will result in some uneven performances. So when you make the comparison to Gens where the players and their performances are constantly the same, I actually don't think that's so great.

As for the 'holding' to get up from a hit, I think that's actually a really important part of the game because of how ridiculously easy it is to knock someone off their feet in the first place. These seem like two grossly unbalanced areas of the game that sort of almost balance when put together. So i'm ok with this one too...

So in a draft league where players are drafted based on their STATS.. it's cool when they don't perform like they should? Talking about a sense of "realism" in NHL '94, the most realistic of games! I'm sure we all play here for the realism that this game brings. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by Premium

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I could understand a shot not being as accurate one game and accurate next, but your weight and ability to check shouldn't be a variable.

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Just to be clear, we drafted players based on their 'stats' (or perhaps our interpretation of their physical abilities) and then sometimes they don't perform 'like they should.' Well....Yea. That actually is EXACTLY my point and you're helping to make my argument for why this ridiculous 20 year old 16 bit game is actually somewhat realistic in that sense. This game is supposed to be a loose representation (or simulation) of ice hockey, and the fluctuating stats and differing 'performances' from players in a given game I think is actually a feature that helps enhance that representation of a human element to the players.

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I could understand a shot not being as accurate one game and accurate next, but your weight and ability to check shouldn't be a variable.

I'm not aware of fluctuating weight, so if that is actually what's happening i would agree this post has a point, but ability to check? Some dude hungover as f**k or maybe even still partially drunk or high from partying the night before a game is CERTAINLY not going to be able to check people the same as if he were well rested and sharp in body and mind.

Same thing goes for a dude puking his guts out from a bad flu the morning of a game. So again, I think the checking ability being variable is definitely realistic.

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I'm 100% not expecting any SNES guys to agree w/ my post.

You've been playing & loving the game as-is for a long time, and my take on your version is not going to be agreed upon even IF I did it in a NON-insulting manner.

Upon that, I would like to also state I think the skills of checking/taking checks seem to change IN GAME.

The beast mode, god mode type thing everyone who plays SNES has seen at least every 3rd game. It's like in NBA JAM when a guy would get hot, and he could do incredible things, except here, it's RANDOM, and there is no flashing HOT display.

But clearly, if a Reichel or Geoff can suddenly take 8-9 hits from 3-4 guys, and not go down, and hold the puck, toss your "realism" out the window.

The popping up and HOLDING me so I can't pass the puck, or move is BEYOND gay. I knock you down, and in return, because it was too easy to knock you down, you get to pop up, whY??? To balance it?

But, what determines IF I can check you or not is random, and that doesn't need a balance??

The flaw in the logic is rampant. My style is rude & offensive. I get it. I appreciate you guys inviting me into your league. I play my games, show up, and get them done. Play w/ enough class and don't trash talk when I'm up, congratulate when you win, etc.

But, if I think the game is lacking, and it is coming up w/ a severe whiff of gay, I'm calling it what it is.

Edited by Brutus

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Also, my biggest point would be to try to find out WHAT really determines whether a guy does or not get checked when playing SNES, and see if that could be understood/fixed to not be so random.

Then, drafting a heavy hitter would have more value. Because right now, at the start of every game, it's random who is going to be doing the checking and who is going to be taking most of the hits.

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Well I wouldn't say I've played the game for a long time, I kinda took a 20 year break from it and only got back into it maybe a year ago or so. But I have been playing the snes version a lot lately, and not really any of the Gens version so I can't really compare them. But I have to confess I think your criticism about not being able to take down mid-size or small players is maybe a little hyperbolic. I've seen what you're describing happen, but in my experiences that is incredibly rare. Yes there is obviously some variability but not to the point where it flips the game on its head, at least not that i've seen.

But as for this comment "at the start of every game, it's random who is going to be doing the checking and who is going to be taking most of the hits." that is DEFINITELY not true to the extent you're making it seem. If you draft kevin hatcher or ray bourque, you pretty much know what kind of hitting they will be doing. And at the same time if you've drafted Theo Fleury or Doug Gilmore, you pretty much know what kind of hitting they'll be taking.

While there is definitely some variability in the stats, its not 0-100 variability. There seems to be a limited range. Now as to the exact formula or calculations, I honestly don't know which leads to your comment about trying to get a look at the code to see how the actual game physics works with hitting. I can agree with that being helpful, not necessarily that it needs to be fixed.

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I drafted Lindros. He's the biggest, fat bastard, heavy checker you can find and also have McSorley.

In no uncertain terms am I not seeing regularly where all of sudden, he has all the little guys knocking him around, and the period before, he was a tank, with guys bouncing off him. I'd noticed it PRIOR to this, but found w/ penalties off, in Puck Dynasty, the swings were not as extreme.

Now, it's probably not 100% as random as I made it seem in my last post, but there is clearly a LARGE swing if guys like Selanne (not from his running start where speed comes into play) can suddenly be a checking machine, and the period before, he couldn't check the big man.

Also, the beast mode is real, and that shows just how there IS SOMETHING that gets goofy within the game when it comes to checking & taking checks.

We've ALL seen the goofy beast mode where you can't knock the puck off the guy nor can you knock him down. I've spoken to 5 coaches who confirmed this and Raph and I were half laughing, half wanting to quit our game when it happened in my favor because it was gay.

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I gotta agree with hazmat here. What Brutus is describing definitely happens as far as beast mode goes, but very rarely in my experience.

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(substance abuse is obviously rampant in this league)

Now it makes sense why the AI acts the way it does.

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Ok Halifax keep laughing. Everybody keep laughing, treat this clearly widespread problem of alcohol and narcotic abuse as a joke. Well I'm NOT LAUGHING! To make matters even more disturbing, my sources have shared with me some unconfirmed reports that not only the players but even THE COACHES in this league may be regularly abusing drugs or alcohol OR BOTH!!!

I have decided to take it upon myself to begin to clean this league up, which has clearly transformed over the years into an amoral hive of scum and villainy.

THEREFORE:

Resolved by members in good standing in the NHL94 community, that the following motion is proposed as League law under the jurisdiction of the Nintendo Corporation, enforceable by Executive action.

Be it enacted by the legislative bodies present within this league, that all NHL94 players AND ALL NHL94 COACHES undergo toxicological screenings at the beginning, midpoint and ending of every season. Players and coaches will be responsible for sending urine, hair and fecal samples to the following address in a timely fashion:

US Drug Enforcement Administration

800 K Street, N.W., Suite 500, Washington, DC 20001

I have already sent in my samples as a demonstration of my leadership and good faith.

Now I don't mean to single people out, but frankly Brutus I would very much like to see the results from your tox screen ASAP, because based on your initial post in this thread I am very much concerned for the long-term health of your body and mind. Halifax, I also think your tox screen should be made public as well. For your own safety, of course.

Now. With all that having been said.

Who will second the motion?

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Also, my biggest point would be to try to find out WHAT really determines whether a guy does or not get checked when playing SNES, and see if that could be understood/fixed to not be so random.

Then, drafting a heavy hitter would have more value. Because right now, at the start of every game, it's random who is going to be doing the checking and who is going to be taking most of the hits.

Please, feel free to test it. I believe there is a ZSNES debugger similar to Gens.

Also, I do see this same randomness in Gens, but I think it is toned down compared to SNES.

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So Brutus' main frustration seems to be the variability of the way the players perform according to their stats. While I am aware that the stats have a random fluctuation from game to game, to be honest I don't really mind it. When you think about it, it seems like an effort to add a little bit of realism to the game. In the sense that in the real world, people go through their ups and downs, have their highs and lows. Be it medical, emotional, chemical (substance abuse is obviously rampant in this league) and all of that will result in some uneven performances. So when you make the comparison to Gens where the players and their performances are constantly the same, I actually don't think that's so great.

As for the 'holding' to get up from a hit, I think that's actually a really important part of the game because of how ridiculously easy it is to knock someone off their feet in the first place. These seem like two grossly unbalanced areas of the game that sort of almost balance when put together. So i'm ok with this one too...

Sums up my thoughts exactly. A 220 lb player is never always guaranteed to bring down a 180 lb player in real life nor is it always guaranteed that the smaller player should always be unable to knock down a larger player judging by weight or checking ability alone. There are too many factors at work that I think the variance in stats and performance cover as closely as possible.

Ex: Think about Doug Gilmour. He wasn't called "Killer" for nothing. One of the smaller forwards in the NHL, yet was nasty and took down players bigger than him on various occasions....

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I agree with SNES guys. :exciting:

Life is random.

The original game was also.

Same as having static rating in GENS.

That is not appealing to me.

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Ah... If only the SNES guys understood the stats and how they work. Seems like there is a serious lack of knowledge in this department.

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This post is epic, but I'm with haz on this one, stats are stats, I think it's your Gameplay the mostly dictates your success. Give me and all star team and I'll still get schooled.

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Ah... If only the SNES guys understood the stats and how they work. Seems like there is a serious lack of knowledge in this department.

Please go on...It seemed like you were about to explain something that would give this entire context a much deeper meaning...

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As the guy who started this little rant, I'd like to make a point.

There is a difference between WANTING variety, and just blindly stating because this game randomly changes what does/doesn't work in the successful checking department, that it is the same thing.

Chaos, I hope to find the time and "unstrained" eyes late at night to try to dig through any code on SNES to see if I see something, but in the meantime, I can only hope one of the smarter, more diligent guys does so in the mean time.

In Gens, you clearly know the rules of engagement, and battle it out under those terms. I'm stating, in SNES, the rules appear to change/fluctuate a lot in game on the checking department. Guys seem to shoot the same the entire game. Those stats do not appear to alter.

But, if a really fat guy goes from uncheckable to unable to stand at all, something is drastically changing. I THINK it has to do with momentum as I've messed with a few games, and find IF I hold the puck with my defense for a decent stretch, it calms down the momentum and my fat guys can stand up again.

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Also, still the crazy, random BEAST mode doesn't seem to want to be acknowledged but it's real, and we've all seen it.

It would seem to me to TIE IN to my other complaint.

Still gay on gay on gay to you guys. :)

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You have to know this is entire line of criticism is ridiculous. The fact that we are complaining about the exact nature of a 20 year old 16-bit video game code that I guess is somewhat complicated (because no one has figured it out yet?) is particularly disturbing. To be honest, I've seen moments where a player goes into this 'BEAST MODE' as you say, but it doesn't seem to last long, and it CERTAINLY doesn't make him impossible to be taken down. So this entire line of an argument seems kinda wasted on such a minute part of the game.

To be fair, I have my own list of complaints with this game, except it isnt really so much with the code itself, but rather I have a problem with the way some people choose to play it. Call it using 'exploits' or perhaps simply 'unethical gaming' but it seems to me those types of issues have a bigger impact on the overall experience with the game rather than the 1's and 0's themselves, and perhaps a better target for a forum-based debate.

(as for the things you're seeing that other people don't see or acknowledge, you know there are probably really good prescription meds available that can help with that...just throwing it out there if you notice this type of effect in other aspects of your life as well!!!!)

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"particularly disturbing', spoken like a true Snes guy.

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hahahaha...

Just trying to speak from the heart!!!!

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To be fair, I have my own list of complaints with this game, except it isnt really so much with the code itself, but rather I have a problem with the way some people choose to play it. Call it using 'exploits' or perhaps simply 'unethical gaming' but it seems to me those types of issues have a bigger impact on the overall experience with the game rather than the 1's and 0's themselves, and perhaps a better target for a forum-based debate.

I'm more interested in hearing this problem you have. What exploits? What kind of unethical gaming? Explain or make another post, that would be nice

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