aqualizard

Desyncing and stuttering

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Hello and good day to you!

I have played 6 official game so far, and one of them was so completely desynced, we agreed to replay the entire game. (We had vastly different scores when we realized it was desynced.) I have these questions:

1. is this normal, to have one game completely desynced out of 6? I was hoping it would be a very rare occurrence, like 1 in 100

2. Are there some tell tale signs that you are desynced, so I can nip it in the bud? (I did notice my opponent behaving erratically, and sometimes not even moving, and repeatedly paused the game and asked if everything was ok, but got no response initially. What is the protocol? What are the telltale signs? It would suck to pause a game and realize there is no desync happening.)

3. Does severe lag/stuttering usually indicate a coming desync? Or can a desync happen and there is no lag or distortion at all?

4. Is it possible to have minor desyncs, and then it sync back up, without noticing?

5. Is it possible lag and distortion only happens for one player, and the other guy is fine?

I have to say, on the one hand I am amazed that technology allows us to play online like this at all with a 20 year old game. However, I am also disappointed because pretty well every game I see some stuttering/distortion (and at least one big desync) and I am using a very fast wired internet connection on a very fast computer with 16 gigs of RAM in the biggest city in Canada.

DISCLAIMER: I am getting my ass handed to me most games and I am not blaming technology. I know I am not as talented as most on this site. I just want to understand the limits of the technology and if I am having a bad run here or if it is par for the course. :)

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Desyncs can come with no notice but the best way to know a desync is did you score a goal way too easily or the other player is skating oddly. Once a game is desync then it can never 'catch up' since that data was lost.

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To reduce the likelihood of a desynch and reduce stuttering, the host should make sure to set the 'smoothing' option to at least "if near UB" or 1 or 2 frames. This introduces a little lag in the game, to give room to 'absorb' delays in receiving data.

1) It depends on the opponent / the connection between the two players. Some people I have no trouble against. Last time I played AJ, we couldn't get it to work without adding lots of smoothing (to the point it felt like playing on a modem back in the day, like 200ms delay).

2) You will learn to recognize it. If guys are wristshotting from their blue-line, they are probably doing a check on their screen. Skating into corners. Random passes. Not chasing you or defending. If that happens and I'm pretty sure it's a desynch, I pause the game, and eventually the guy will reply to you, because it would have paused the game on his screen, too, or he'll also notice something is wrong (you stopped moving your guys).

3) If the connection is stuttering, you're more likely to desynch. However, you can have a lag/stutter-free game, and suddenly it desynchs.

4) No, a desynch is permanent. THe games will get more and more different.

5) Yes, sometimes only one player will have a stuttering/slideshow game, and the other guy will think the game is fine.

The problem is that the networking is really tacked on to the emulator, not built in.

If both players want to use the Kega emulator, which has cleaner network play (although it feels a bit weird / toooo smooth), they're free to use it. Just make sure it's possible to save the game when in netplay (it used to be disabled, but I'm pretty sure it's enabled now).

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I think I get a desynch these days with 1 out of 100 games. It's not common for me.

When you are wiring up, make sure to actually turn off wifi. I know that when I plug in, my laptop is still wifi unless I go and disconnect from my wifi network. Do that before starting anything as you may still unknowingly be using wifi.

Same holds true for your opponents.

A speedy connection is not as important as a "clean" one. You probably only need about 2MB to play, but any interference on the network is what usually causes desyncs. So if other people are watching movies, downloading, etc, that will affect your game. I like to use pingtest.net to test my connection quality (always get an "A").

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I think I get a desynch these days with 1 out of 100 games. It's not common for me.

When you are wiring up, make sure to actually turn off wifi. I know that when I plug in, my laptop is still wifi unless I go and disconnect from my wifi network. Do that before starting anything as you may still unknowingly be using wifi.

Same holds true for your opponents.

A speedy connection is not as important as a "clean" one. You probably only need about 2MB to play, but any interference on the network is what usually causes desyncs. So if other people are watching movies, downloading, etc, that will affect your game. I like to use pingtest.net to test my connection quality (always get an "A").

is the ping option in Hamachi a good way to test connection with your opponent? Do they both need to run it and compare results?

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Ping option in hamachi will display what you are pinging between each other, but not who has a problem with the connection.

So, if you see:

50,

50,

49,

50,

49,

48,

50,

79,

120,

108,

79,

50,

49,

49,

49,

51,

etc...you can see the spike, but not sure what caused it. Pingtest.net will at least let you test each connection separately, so you can maybe figure out which person has the connection problem.

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Cool so as a pregame test it'd be worth checking? Then if spikes run ping test? I guess you see in connection window how steady it is but don't get a running log.

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To reduce the likelihood of a desynch and reduce stuttering, the host should make sure to set the 'smoothing' option to at least "if near UB" or 1 or 2 frames. This introduces a little lag in the game, to give room to 'absorb' delays in receiving data.

Can you expand on this some?

In the Gens "Connection Window" (is this app "Kaillera"?) I see in the righthand bottom area a label "Smoothing" with dropdown that has:

1.none

2.if near UB

3.always

4.extra

You mentioned the "If near UB" option, so I get that, but what do I do for the "1 or 2 frames" you mentioned? Am I adding frames or dropping frames or what? And how?

Thanks everyone for the helpful tips and info.

Edited by aqualizard

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Can you expand on this some?

In the Gens "Connection Window" (is this app "Kaillera"?) I see in the righthand bottom area a label "Smoothing" with dropdown that has:

1.none

2.if near UB

3.always

4.extra

You mentioned the "If near UB" option, so I get that, but what do I do for the "1 or 2 frames" you mentioned? Am I adding frames or dropping frames or what? And how?

Thanks everyone for the helpful tips and info.

It looks like you're using the r06 version of the kaillera DLL. It only has those 4 options. If you use the r07 version (which you should, it's better), you'll get more options.

If using r06, what I do is if the the ping is around 50ms or lower, I leave it on "none". around 75, "always". 90+, "extra."

You can get the r07 version from http://p2p.kaillera.ru/(click "download" then it's there). You should keep both versions on your machine, and switch the files whenever you need to.

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It looks like you're using the r06 version of the kaillera DLL. It only has those 4 options. If you use the r07 version (which you should, it's better), you'll get more options.

If using r06, what I do is if the the ping is around 50ms or lower, I leave it on "none". around 75, "always". 90+, "extra."

You can get the r07 version from http://p2p.kaillera.ru/(click "download" then it's there). You should keep both versions on your machine, and switch the files whenever you need to.

Slightly off topic here but I have an issue with the new kaillera. I am using that Play on a Mac program to play my games and it seems to work flawlessly except for if I try the new kaillera. The game won't load and I can't even get Gens to open.

Any ideas Smoz.

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I think Coach may have had both kaillera.dll files in GENS. My tip is rename the old kaillera to something like kaillera_o.dll, and then put the new client in. GENS will read whatever file is called kaillera.dll. If someone needs to use the old version, rename the new one kaillera_n.dll and change the old one back to kaillera.dll.

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It looks like you're using the r06 version of the kaillera DLL. It only has those 4 options. If you use the r07 version (which you should, it's better), you'll get more options.

If using r06, what I do is if the the ping is around 50ms or lower, I leave it on "none". around 75, "always". 90+, "extra."

You can get the r07 version from http://p2p.kaillera.ru/(click "download" then it's there). You should keep both versions on your machine, and switch the files whenever you need to.

Well I am using the kailera that came with the zip from NHL94online.com/ (Perhaps the preferred one can be put in that Zip instead of the old one? Not sure who controls that.)

Anyhoo, if I use the new one, does it work with the old one (if my opponent has that one), or do you and your opponent have to match up with the same version?

Edited by aqualizard

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Well I am using the kailera that came with the zip from NHL94online.com/ (Perhaps the preferred one can be put in that Zip instead of the old one? Not sure who controls that.)

Anyhoo, if I use the new one, does it work with the old one (if my opponent has that one), or do you and your opponent have to match up with the same version?

You must be using the same version, which is why I keep both on my machine, and just rename them whenever I need to use a particular one.

For example, right now I have

kailleraclient.dll

kailleraclient06.dll

If I need to play with the r06, I rename them so I have

kailleraclient07.dll

kailleraclient.dll (used to be 06)

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:shame: What Raph walked me thru on AIM worked perfectly.

I now have both.

I get it.

Thanks Raph and Smoz.

I think Aqua is in the same place as me.

So here is step by step what to do.

#1 Download new kaillera

#2 Put it in your Gens folder

#3 Rename the old one with an "o" at the end.

#4 Play your games and it will use the new one

#5 Keep the old just in case and if you need it rename by taking the "o" off and adding an "n" to the new.

(Perhaps the preferred one can be put in that Zip instead of the old one? Not sure who controls that.)

It takes a huge amount of time and effort to do all the things these guys do to run the leagues and keep up these web-sites.

NHL94online may be the the only web-site cooler than NHL94.

So I am sure at some point what you ask for will happen, but it takes you about 2 secs to go get the right one.

I like you did not get it so I get your frustration, but remember all the stuff they got going on.

It blows me away the stats I can analyze from my first 4 games of classic.

This is so cool.

Can you track stats and save states for 92?

If so put that on your list of things to do also. :big_smile:

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I haven't had one de sync with new Kaerilla

It does drop but when it goes to zero frames you can hit the CPR button and it brings it back to life most times.

Raph I assume you meant 2Mb not 2MB

Edited by kylewat

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I haven't had one de sync with new Kaerilla

It does drop but when it goes to zero frames you can hit the CPR button and it brings it back to life most times.

Seconded.

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It does drop but when it goes to zero frames you can hit the CPR button and it brings it back to life most times.

:horror:

What black magic is this?

This needs to be common knowledge.

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What the heck is CPR button?

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Gonna guess he means pausing the game before a complete desync.

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I'm thinking that if you are using the r07, there must be a button that says "CPR" on it, and it can restore a dropped game somehow. Not a desynch, but a dropped game.

I think I explained it pretty well. When the frames drop to zero, you hit the button. It worked like black magic for the first ten times I did it, but lately it hasn't worked as well. Nonetheless, it has still worked more than it hasn't.

It is before the game drops you hit the button.

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Desyncs don't happen on the new kaillera anyway.

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I think I explained it pretty well. When the frames drop to zero, you hit the button. It worked like black magic for the first ten times I did it, but lately it hasn't worked as well. Nonetheless, it has still worked more than it hasn't.

It is before the game drops you hit the button.

Edited by kylewat

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It is before the game drops you hit the button.

So like when the game freezes and you know it's about to drop, that's when you click the CPR button?

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So like when the game freezes and you know it's about to drop, that's when you click the CPR button?

Correct!

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2 out of 3 games last night with Jack and Jose desynced.

It was a real bummer.

We were using the new kaillera.

Any thoughts?

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2 out of 3 games last night with Jack and Jose desynced.

It was a real bummer.

We were using the new kaillera.

Any thoughts?

Same. Could have been connection issues on his end.

I was able to use the "cpr" button trick in a couple of games.. but you effectively are hands off in the game while doing it.

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Increasing the smoothing can reduce the likelihood of a desynch, in my experience trying it with aj earlier in the year. Might want to start at 8 frames to see if it works (but it'll feel reeeaaally unresponsive/delayed), then work backwards to something that works but isn't too delayed.

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Increasing the smoothing can reduce the likelihood of a desynch, in my experience trying it with aj earlier in the year. Might want to start at 8 frames to see if it works (but it'll feel reeeaaally unresponsive/delayed), then work backwards to something that works but isn't too delayed.

Anything above 4 frames feels so grossssss *barf

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