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Mythbuster: Long and Short sticks and more


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Good Day!
Two myths -- or possible myths -- I have heard that I invite commentary on:

1. Some players have short or long sticks. (And this is not reflected in any visible stat, yet *does* have a bearing on shooting and puck handling.)

2. Righties are better dekers and turn tighter.

I have my own thoughts, but can you share yours?

Edited by aqualizard
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I believe if you stare at any screen long enough, you will start to see clown pictures :) Both Zalex & Seth seem to be the biggest proponents of this mythology.

As for righty vs lefty, I don't see it but DO BELIEVE that plabax actually took the time and counted frame by the frame the movement, and found a right can do a spin-o-rama but a lefty couldn't and something a lefty could do a righty couldn't.

So, I say no to #1, and a minor yes to #2.

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This thread hasn't got the traction I had hoped, so I will weigh in earlier than I wanted, with my own thoughts.

I do not believe in long and short sticks, or any other "hidden" attributes. My guess is, what you get when you export a ROM using the "NHL Hockey Roster Tool" is all the stats that exist, and I don't see any "Stick Length" so think it highly unlikely.

As for spinning tighter with righties, I do not believe that either. (Though I would like to see the frame by fame analysis.) If it appears that way, I think it is an optical illusion based on how we perceive spinning with sticks on different sides, and not a real phenomenon.

HOWEVER, it does make sense that a deke would be more successful on one side (righties, I guess) because most goalies are better at making stops on one side (since most goalies are righthanded, and hold their gloves with left hand and stick and blocker with right). So by virtue of most goalies sharing the same "weak side", a righty shooter may have a *relative* advantage. (Though not an *inherent* advantage in right being better than left; they are the same.)

Edited by aqualizard
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No use trying convince others of something they already think is BS, despite the fact that it's clearly visible on the screen to some of us. I wrote a long detailed response explaining it, but decided to delete it. You're all gonna laugh and bash it anyway. So believe what you want.

But it's not just myself and Zalex, Plab and TK are also on board with these findings.

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I'm not sure about the long stick / short stick thing, I've never heard about it until recently.

As for spinning, it really is very simple. You can't do a quick buttery smooth spinorama with a lefty, it just doesn't work. With some lefties you can do a slower spin, but you must do it noticeably slower or it won't work.

Spinoramas understandably only work with certain players. They must have agile enough skating, and they must be right handed. Try it out yourself.

Agile enough skating isn't very easy to define, because of weight's negative effect on agility. Speed on its own doesn't seem to matter as 3 speeders like Bradley can spin as good as 5 speeders like Klima. Even some of the righties on terrible classic teams like Ottawa can do this.

I even tested with these players (order was from some old gdl):

Roenick - R - YES

Mogilny - L - NO

Bure - L - NO

Yzerman - R - YES

Ciccarelli - R - YES

Ronning - L - NO (can not even remotely do a slow one)

Fleury - R - YES

Selanne - R YES

Gretzky - L - NO (as awful as Ronning, maybe worse (forget))

Gartner - R - YES

Modano - L - NO

Klima - R - YES

Lafontaine - R YES

Gilmour - L - NO

Recchi - L - NO (but not as bad as most lefties (can kinda do one slowly))

Lemieux - R - YES

Sakic - L - NO

R. Courtnall - R - YES

Sweeney - L - NO

Fedorov - L - NO (like Recchi)

Bradley - R - YES

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No use trying convince others of something they already think is BS, despite the fact that it's clearly visible on the screen to some of us. I wrote a long detailed response explaining it, but decided to delete it. You're all gonna laugh and bash it anyway. So believe what you want.

But it's not just myself and Zalex, Plab and TK are also on board with these findings.

Seth, please do share the long response! It would be awesome.

I don't want to bash, honest. (Hell, you are a respected vet and I am a green newb, not my place to bash.) I would love to be convinced.

I don't even know what you are referring to, Myth #1 or Myth #2 or both? But please share!

I will say, it is possible that sticks are longer and shorter, and reflected in a stat that the Extraction Tool misses, I just do not think so. And the spinning thing may be true, too. I am going to use Tom K's post above to see for myself!

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Ok TK, I checked it out myslef. I used Buffalo, and I was able to spin pretty smooth with Mogilny, Hawerchuk and Lafontaine. I could do it clockwise and counter-clockwise, though one of the two was easier. (Can't remember which.)

Now, THIS DOES NOT DISPROVE THE THEORY!

You mentioned a "quick buttery smooth spinorama", and possibly if you saw mine you would say they are neither quick nor buttery. Maybe even a tad jerky. So I may be held back by my own skill limitations here... so...

You don't have any video of an example of these spins by chance, or know where one is, do you? Thanks either way. This case is not closed!

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Seth, please do share the long response! It would be awesome.

I don't want to bash, honest. (Hell, you are a respected vet and I am a green newb, not my place to bash.) I would love to be convinced.

I don't even know what you are referring to, Myth #1 or Myth #2 or both? But please share!

I will say, it is possible that sticks are longer and shorter, and reflected in a stat that the Extraction Tool misses, I just do not think so. And the spinning thing may be true, too. I am going to use Tom K's post above to see for myself!

Haha not you man, everyone else likes to bust my balls and says I'm full of wild theories and claims. I deleted what I wrote and now too lazy to rethink and type it. It's GONE forever!

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Just play around with some skaters.

It's easy to see that some have shorter sticks than other. That's a fact.

I do believe that having a longer stick helps in poke/deke. That's an opinion.

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Just play around with some skaters.

It's easy to see that some have shorter sticks than other. That's a fact.

Thanks for the reply! I have never noticed the long and short stick thing, but I will take a closer look and even do a screen cap or two. Is it visible on everyone at all times, or only the puck carrier, or just during dekes or shots or what and when?

Also, it springs to mind that if there is a visible stick size difference, maybe it is really different player sizes altogether? ANd that is reflected in a stat: weight. Maybe the bigger sticks are the bigger players? Can you give me some names of bigger stick players? (Or the opposite?)

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lol.

Guys, all lefties turn the same and all righties turn the same regardless of stats. A skater with 15 weight and 0 agility can spin the same as his 0 weight, 6 agility counterpart.

Left-handed players move differently than right-handed players. It's just how the game is programmed. Righties can spin and stickhandle better (allows for better deking of defenders and goalies), but I find that left-handed players are better at scoring floaters.

Guys like myself, Carse and Zeppelin who score a ton of raw floater goals usually do so with lefties.

As for the stick length.. I have no idea.

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lol.

Guys, all lefties turn the same and all righties turn the same regardless of stats. A skater with 15 weight and 0 agility can spin the same as his 0 weight, 6 agility counterpart.

Left-handed players move differently than right-handed players. It's just how the game is programmed. Righties can spin and stickhandle better (allows for better deking of defenders and goalies), but I find that left-handed players are better at scoring floaters.

Guys like myself, Carse and Zeppelin who score a ton of raw floater goals usually do so with lefties.

As for the stick length.. I have no idea.

What are you talking about. 15 weight 0 agility players don't spin the same as 0 weight 6 agility at all. The turning mechanics are the same but the speed at which they turn is so drastically different that they don't spin even remotely close to the same.

Also, you can't do a spinorama with a 15 weight 0 agility player :huh:

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What are you talking about. 15 weight 0 agility players don't spin the same as 0 weight 6 agility at all. The turning mechanics are the same but the speed at which they turn is so drastically different that they don't spin even remotely close to the same.

Also, you can't do a spinorama with a 15 weight 0 agility player :huh:

Turning speed is universal. There is no stat that makes you turn faster. Agility is acceleration. I'm pretty sure there's no relation between Agi/Turning. Edited by Premium
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If you are already at a complete stop, all players turn left or right the same except if they are lefty or righty is what plabs is asserting here TK.

The time it takes to stop and then spin is extremely different from just spinning.

I'm going to stop reading these theories & test this stuff out myself next time I fire up '94.

I need names with longer/shorter sticks, PLEASE. I want to see if I can't see it myself. I did just read a few articles showing some crazy optical illusions, like with the curved play train track set (freaky!), so maybe that's where you guys are getting it.

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yep. a few examples of "long stick" guys and "short stick" guys would be a great help for those trying to grasp this stuff.

Edited by tru
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I think I've figured it out the long sticks players are usually righties like Mario and verbeek and short stick guys are lefties like bassen I never really put the 2 together but the thread made me realize this ....your welcome kg signing off

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