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Getting Demolished by the CB Check

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After getting beat by Raph in too many games, I have realized that there is nothing I can do to beat the CB check as a player who prefers the B-check.

The whole appeal of the B-check is that it works with any player, meaning you do not have to sacrifice any important assets unlike the C check. The downside is that it is harder to play defense with the B-check than it is with the C check. Now with the CB check, what was a big advantage of the B-check is now nullified.

Example.. The C-checkers prefer Petr Svoboda because he is lighter, but a B-checker like myself prefers Larry Murphy and Zalapski because they are more skilled.. Now you can just take Larry Murphy and CB check. That's not the purpose!!!! :glare::grimace:

I know I am the one that brought the CB check into play and although I use heavy players, I still B-check over 90% of the time. Most of my checks with the heaviest of players such as Lindros and Stevens are still B-checks.

fuk!!!

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LOL bitter beat at your own game

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LOL bitter beat at your own game

Yeah man I need to play some Blitz.

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CB is the great equalizer in my opinion. The final piece in a checks and balances system. Before that, it was a powerless feeling (imo) going up against the low weight, high stickhandling, high agility players. Especially at slower speeds, when a B-check didn't always work when you needed it to against them. And you had to really try to zero in on them for those B-checks at close distance. Extremely difficult sometimes and made it feel like a lost cause to attack those types of players. With CB, they can be annihilated like everyone else, if you use it appropriately. I know, this isn't anything you don't already know.

I see everyone doing it, including you, Raph, AJ, Brutus, and many others. I understand you don't like how lethal it can be. But if anyone can adapt and thrive, surely the Plabber can. I used to hate pass shots with a pass-ion. I attempted to try to learn them, but wasn't willing to put in the time and effort it takes. I still don't know how you guys pull them off so well, it's insanity. Very difficult to defend and goaltend against. I remember when Ice threw a hissy fit a while back the first time I played him and went on a CB assault mission. He was furious, "what's this crap". But not soon after that, I saw him on IM and said "hey, you're back". He said "yeah, adapt or die".

I think that's what makes this game so amazing, the various strategies out there at one's disposal and the myriad of tactics we have contend with against opponents.

As for Raph, there's a lot of things that attribute to his dominant play these days besides CB. Moves the puck fast, uses all types of players successfully, thinks a move in advance, has explosive offense and aggressive D, can pass shot superbly, etc. He's just gotten better. And it was just last year when he told me, after losing in GDL finals to you: "I just can't beat Plabax".

Anyhow, get your ass back in the leagues, you know you want to. All the old names are returning. Enough with this learned hopelessness s**t. After all, you are the Premium, Perfect, Pristine, Piston Plabax, so compete!

Weren't there 5 P nicknames? Which one did I miss?

Edited by Uncle Seth

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I do find that playing Seth & Raph feels like running the gauntlet.

Guys flying at you from every direction & it's a constant barrage of it since as they switch off, the CPU is now checking you & they are grabbing the next guy.

Difference these two have in the C/b is they've figured out you don't need to do math anymore & it can be done from very short distances, similar to rolling a one timer, with almost everyone ca anyone.

So, a fleury of C/b does not put them out of position & surviving it does NOT give you some open lane to pass to. It literally never ends.

For me, I find I can keep the games close, but just don't enjoy them nearly as much. Something feels less fun without the weight math/strategy to me.

Pass shots, especially from ice if he got really hot could be, well not so fun, but if I played conservative, I could limit that aspect & then marvel at his air tight goalie/defense on me.

Anyhow, to me it's not a wins/loss frustration, but a loss of some of the chess style fun I used to enjoy that a spazzed version of the c/b can result in.

I should also note, while legit, I don't often enjoy vs Zep or J&j when they start doing all their backwards, backwards, backwards crap & then after a minute , slide up through my defense all out of position for a goal. Quite legit, but I don't enjoy playing against it & if everyone on the site played like that, I probably wouldn't play.

So, it's ok to face here & there for me, but I see plabax point. He only plays for the end game & knows when he gets there in any league, odds are, Raph & this hyper c/b attacking defense is waiting to end his game.

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You should have to sacrifice important assets if you want to body check players.

What I believe is represented in Blitz (no bugs), so I think my opinion is correct to an extent. If you want to body check in Blitz, you have to sacrifice skill. C-checkers would end up with Jimmy Carson/Wendel Clark/C. Lemieux, I would end up with Klima/Recchi/Damphousse, Roenick/LaFontaine/Gilmour, or Ciccarelli/Gagner/Davydov. To me this makes sense and is equal. Play easier defense with Carson but leave your self vulnerable to B-checks on offense (with less skill), or play easier offense with Klima but leave yourself vulnerable to C-checks on offense (with more skill)? It's harder to avoid C-checks, so more skill should be given. This is a clear trade-off.

With the weight bug, the prime C-checkers are average/shitty players. It usually means picking guys like Russell vs. Manson, Svoboda vs. Bourque, Drake vs. Kamensky, Broten vs. Hull, Lebeau vs. Lemieux. My GDL 11 team vs. EA's GDL 14 team is the best representation of what I'm talking about. Gretz/Lemieux/Carson/Coffey/Murphy vs. Roenick/Emerson/Drake/Zhitnik/Maciver. The first one is for me, the other is for the guy who wants to play like Raph. Now anyone can take my team and get the best of both worlds with the CB check. This is not equal. There is no trade-off.

Light guys with high stickhandling were never even a problem. Before the CB check, the biggest threat modern GDL ever saw was HABS using Wayne Gretzky and losing in the first round. Bo lost with Bure, I lost with Roenick, Carse lost with Gretzky, Swos lost with Fleury.. The B-check always handled it fine.

There's a disadvantage to the B-check and there's a disadvantage to the C-check. There is no disadvantage of using the CB check so I don't see any equalizer.

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The trade-off with heavy players (who can CB the largest population of opponents) is slower acceleration, larger turning radius, taking longer to change direction & stop. In other words, all the aspects of agility. Having players with the those (anything but minor) detriments is a trade-off. Playing aggressive and throwing checks results in way more penalties, and it revs up your AI players who continue that trend on their own. Chasing someone (via aggressive D-style) to CB them from distance absolutely opens up ice and lanes. This is all truth.

There are facts supported by evidence and our own opinions of how we feel the game should be. I CB just as much as Raph does, probably more. I have zero titles. Clearly there is much more to winning than CB. But because 1 guy won the last GDL who happens to be a heavy CB'er does not mean everyone else is toast. That's crazy. Everyone can do it. The playing field is even. Move the puck quicker, make better plays, be more evasive, get shooters who can score from distance, anticipate and dodge hits. Draft more speed and agility, because the those players are much harder to line up. Of course the game has changed a bit. And not everyone is going to be happy. But that doesn't make it unfair.

The pass shots some coaches score are unreal. Completely changes the way you have to play those specific coaches. Seems unfair. Until you accept that everyone can do it. Aggressive CB is a way to counter those pass-shooters who love nothing more than someone who plays a laid back passive D-style, someone who backs up and gives them the space.

I was playing TK the other night and beforehand I stated I wasn't going to use CB at all. Over the course of about 5 games, I threw 1 maybe 2 accidental CB checks. The rest were B checks and I was much less aggressive because of it. I kept thinking, "I need to do more of this B-checking & passive style, it's great playing with all 5 of your starters out there at once". I took probably 3-4 penalties total over those 5 games. A dramatic reduction in penalties taken for me who typically takes 1-2 per period.

Edited by Uncle Seth

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You've lost to AJ, Ice, Zalex, (BRUTUS!YIKES!) & Plabax in the playoffs.

Since your Cb development, you got crushed by Ice & lost the controversial one to AJ.

So, your playoff results have not changed based on using/not using Cb.

HOWEVER, you know what I'm talking about. Your Cb'ing is coming from light guys, not heavy guys. So, there is no trade off. I'm seeing weight 6's & 7's Cb'ing weight 6 & 7's constantly, and there are no open lanes when you aren't having to chase to Cb. It's a short Cb roll of the buttons, like an in tight one timer. The result is as I'm thinking I'm clear of a B check of a guy same weight as me, and trying to deke through the defense, I get checked.

You've mentioned you play as everyone can check everyone in your mind so it doesn't bother you. To me, I'm stating it clearly changes the "rules of the strategy", and to me, makes it less fun not having this come into play.

FOR Plabax, having Raph, a guy who probably beats him w/ a good internet connection almost every time regardless of Cb or not, the EXTRA edge he now has w/ Cb just guarantees him 100% loss.

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Also, this is WHY I LOVE LOVE the live aspect of the tourney. Because LIVE, it doesn't matter if the "game" itself is fun. The one on one battle makes up for anything, and the intensity is off the charts.

Showing up, seeing how KG was chill, talking trash, like "I'm the champ, you are the chump"., you could just TELL it was going to end badly for most. His play wasn't so OVER the top crazy good that you were saying, "This dude is unbeatable." , but he never buckled under the pressure/moment.

Still, I don't play SNES even though those are some cool dudes because to me, it's just not as strategic. Having same weight guys running around Cb'ing everyone has brought the game play closer to SNES level for me. I'm still going to plug away and hope to have a fun time come Toronto and league playoffs.

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Even if you CB check with heavy, there is still an advantage. The light counterparts of the CB checkers suck. Playing to C check doesn't give you the guys like LaFontaine and Gilmour, it means playing with Tom Pedersen and Dallas Drake.

Would you rather have 2nd round Don Sweeney, or 4th round Al Iafrate? Iafrate is better, but is picked later because he can't C check as well. If you take Iafrate and use the CB check.. then how is it not an advantage, especially when everyone else is using shitty light players.

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And remember.... In Blitz, where there are no cheats, nobody has come close to beating me!!!!

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What I take from this is that you guys are saying Raph is just too good for you. But it can't be because of CB, because I don't have championships and I CB a ton. So Plabs, just play Blitz if it works to your skill-set and preference. That's why there are different leagues out there.

Brutus you beat me with Bos vs my Washington, so let's not pretend to forget how Raph and I were left with NJ and Washington. And Zalex never beat me in playoffs, not that he isn't a strong player. I've lost only to the uppermost tier opponents when it wasn't a handicapped draft (like that one classic). Raph, Ice, Plab, Swos & AJ. I can live with that. Maybe I am a bit deranged but I still feel I can beat anyone. Just taking a lot longer than I wanted to try to prove it.

If it wasn't for CB Brute, you'd still be standing still in the slot with Hawerchuk, laughing as I try to b-check him unsuccessfully as he toddles, holds onto the puck and I get a penalty. CB took care of that gayness real quick. :rolleyes:

And how the heck is Raph doing so good with Buffalo in classic now? All those CB'ers must be the reason. Let's list them.....the 2nd defenseman paired with Svoboda is either Bodger, Ledyard, or Smelik.

You guys sound like Hockey now, complaining it's no fun, cheats, etc. Speaking of cheats, who else uses "macros" around here besides Plab? Care to explain why you program your keyboard so that one button can be pressed that executes 2 commands? So you can get off that super close one-timer.

So sour because the game has changed. Just get better, honestly, that's the only real solution. The same strategies are available to everyone, so draft accordingly.

How can either of you even complain when you pass-shot and CB yourselves? Let that sink in for a minute.

Adapt or die! Or threaten to quit like I do, lol. We've moved from denial, now we're in the anger/bitter phase. Acceptance comes next. :rolleyes:

Edited by Uncle Seth

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Would you rather have 2nd round Don Sweeney, or 4th round Al Iafrate? Iafrate is better, but is picked later because he can't C check as well. If you take Iafrate and use the CB check.. then how is it not an advantage, especially when everyone else is using shitty light players.

You're either ignoring or you missed the whole point of what I mentioned earlier about the interplay between weight and agility. This is something YOU taught me. Yes, they are both 4/4, but do you really think Iafrate skates as well as Svoboda?

Edited by Uncle Seth

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I don't use macros, lol. I'm natural :)

It's not about getting better, it's about not being able to do anything against it. It's like a fourth option in Rock-Paper-Scissors that beats all three. There is no disadvantage to this CB check, while there are disadvantages to the other defensive options in the game.

You can say I need to get better.. but until I lose in Blitz, I don't think I have to.

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You're either ignoring or you missed the whole point of what I mentioned earlier about the interplay between weight and agility. This is something YOU taught me. Yes, they are both 4/4, but do you really think Iafrate skates as well as Svoboda?

Here is what I believe.. if a player is picked earlier in Blitz but later in GDL, it's because of the C check. Take Iafrate and Svoboda.. Svoboda goes earlier in GDL and always later in Blitz, which is an indicator of being worse.

Sure Svoboda is the better skater, but that isn't the reason WHY anyone considers him over Iafrate. The reason is because he is a better body checker. Nobody picks Svoboda over Iafrate because of skating.. give me a break.

With the CB check you can body check with Iafrate (who is way better) so it's a clear advantage.

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CB check = C check

I get body checked a lot more then most others and I check far less then most others. I still get my share of offensive production and victories almost regardless of team makeup.

Where Raph got me in our classic games this season was on transition. He got my defenders caught one way or another and just had breakaway after breakaway and i didnt do enough to adjust or get the manual GC working like i needed to in order to stem his transition. The CB wasn't any bigger of a factor then a C check.

The biggest thing that you can do plabber is admit you have holes in your game. Stop being arrogant about yourself, I've seen enough of your tape and played against you enough times to know this is a fact.

I had to admit the same thing to myself at some point and I made it a point to work on where I felt I was weak. Hell, we've all had to come to this realization and have worked to make ourselves better. You are no exception, you will need to put in work or you will continue to have this occur to you.

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Y'all are just overeacting to the newest thing in town.

But hey me and AJ's games are old school as s**t and we're both no pushovers. Only Ice has a better win% than I in GDL so far.

27 wasn't supposed to be that great because of the heavy defenders but Habs been the only one who truly neutered him so far. Everybody has holes in his game and nobody's perfect, good thing some of the old guys are coming back to give this stale era of ancients a good shakeup.

Edited by The Russian Rocket

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CB check = C check

I get body checked a lot more then most others and I check far less then most others. I still get my share of offensive production and victories almost regardless of team makeup.

Where Raph got me in our classic games this season was on transition. He got my defenders caught one way or another and just had breakaway after breakaway and i didnt do enough to adjust or get the manual GC working like i needed to in order to stem his transition. The CB wasn't any bigger of a factor then a C check.

The biggest thing that you can do plabber is admit you have holes in your game. Stop being arrogant about yourself, I've seen enough of your tape and played against you enough times to know this is a fact.

I had to admit the same thing to myself at some point and I made it a point to work on where I felt I was weak. Hell, we've all had to come to this realization and have worked to make ourselves better. You are no exception, you will need to put in work or you will continue to have this occur to you.

You've never played me.. you've practiced against me. There's a difference.

I may have holes in my game, but until anyone comes close to beating me without bugs... I don't see them.

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Y'all are just overeacting to the newest thing in town.

But hey me and AJ's games are old school as s**t and we're both no pushovers. Only Ice has a better win% than I in GDL so far.

27 wasn't supposed to be that great because of the heavy defenders but Habs been the only one who truly neutered him so far. Everybody has holes in his game and nobody's perfect, good thing some of the old guys are coming back to give this stale era of ancients a good shakeup.

Agree. I think we can add KG to this mix as well. The guy who won it all on the biggest stage, with no CB or no pass shot. Just weed and a nap.

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Agree. I think we can add KG to this mix as well. The guy who won it all on the biggest stage, with no CB or no pass shot. Just weed and a nap.

KGman's eminence is self-evident

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You've never played me.. you've practiced against me. There's a difference.

I may have holes in my game, but until anyone comes close to beating me without bugs... I don't see them.

Always with excuses. This sounds like the scene in swingers:

Me: you gonna practice when im not here?

Plabax: (repeats question like a moron)

Me: Ok, we'll play some more. He likes to get scored on. Great Times!

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Always with excuses. This sounds like the scene in swingers:

Me: you gonna practice when im not here?

Plabax: (repeats question like a moron)

Me: Ok, we'll play some more. He likes to get scored on. Great Times!

You don't get it. He's a finesse player

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It's not about getting better, it's about not being able to do anything against it. It's like a fourth option in Rock-Paper-Scissors that beats all three. There is no disadvantage to this CB check, while there are disadvantages to the other defensive options in the game.

You can say I need to get better.. but until I lose in Blitz, I don't think I have to.

Ok, maybe I am missing something, or don't understand how CB works?

In Classic, which has the weight bug, you CB check so that heavy guys can check the way they were supposed to, right? So effectively, the CB check behaves like a C check was intended, right?

(Or is a CB check in Classic, with Iafrate say, somehow BETTER than a regular C-check with Iafrate in (weight bug fixed) Blitz? Seems to me, the heavy guys will check the same using CB in Classic, and just C in Blitz, right? However in Classic, light guys will still be good checkers, but they will not in Blitz. Is this "light guy" quirk what Plabax doesn't like?)

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Ok, maybe I am missing something, or don't understand how CB works?

In Classic, which has the weight bug, you CB check so that heavy guys can check the way they were supposed to, right? So effectively, the CB check behaves like a C check was intended, right?

(Or is a CB check in Classic, with Iafrate say, somehow BETTER than a regular C-check with Iafrate in (weight bug fixed) Blitz? Seems to me, the heavy guys will check the same using CB in Classic, and just C in Blitz, right? However in Classic, light guys will still be good checkers, but they will not in Blitz. Is this "light guy" quirk what Plabax doesn't like?)

C-B check to my knowledge is more effective than C-Check is in fixed leagues. For Examples 188 guys will have a much higher sucess rate at hitting other 188 guys in C-B

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Ok. With C check, you need to be 2 ratings lower in weight to C check a guy successfully. So weight 180 or 5 weight, can C check all the 196 lb or 7 weight players, unless they have a very high agility or stick handling, & then sometimes the player you are trying to C check even if much heavier, can still get you to bounce off of him. This successful block of the C check only works on a few angles though. Generally, even though Mario & Hull can do some trickiery, they are going down more times than not to a lighter player's C check.

Since most of the true scorers are either weight 6 or 7, a player who is weight 4 or 172 lbs is of great C checking value just for his C check defense.

The theory in C/b was it just reversed the rules, so you needed to be weight 9 or 212 lbs to successfully complete the reversed C check vs the weight 6 & 7 true scorers.

However, as I've stated after playing Raph & Seth, you will quickly discover C/b can work on same weight guys some of the time && always if it's within one weight class.

So Seth has a bunch of 196 lb players running around C/b all of your guys NOT 204 lbs or heavier. And, as it turns out, 99% of guys immune to this long range check are generally too slow as a result of being so big.

For me, I found having to play with a variance of different weight players to add strategy into who can/cannot be checked by whom was great for the paper, rock, scissors style strategy.

While the gameplay is not cheap, the fact that it plays more like SNES now that anyone can randomly check anyone as long as you are using the C/b checking style to me took the game's strategy & fun down several notches.

If C/b only worked if you were 2 points higher in weight, then even though it would be changing the rules from before, it would still be leaving plenty of new strategy into the game.

But when weight 6 players can C/b check your weight 6 players as you are skating around thinking, I only have to avoid the B check, it's a completely new game now.

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