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Uncle Seth

A Penalty Revolt

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That isn't actual data. That's just your feelings/very limited biases experience viewpoint. Maybe you didn't but the CPU did and Svoboda will almost never get a positive check which will yield dumb penalties like ''slashing''

Well, yeah the CPU did. That's random (to me) because you can't control that. I know for a fact that I don't mash C checks. Many games I never even attempt any.

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Well, yeah the CPU did. That's random (to me) because you can't control that. I know for a fact that I don't mash C checks. Many games I never even attempt any.

Because it isn't. You chose to get a player who can't check on his own. That's your roster decision, that isn't random

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Because it isn't. You chose to get a player who can't check on his own. That's your roster decision, that isn't random

You can't control whether or not you get PIMs, so is it not random? If penalties were NOT random there would be a way to never get them. The computer committing a penalty is random. You can't control whether a computer commits a penalty or not, it just happens.

Stats show that penalties are not player-specific, so it's not a "roster" decision. Many others have had Svoboda and gotten considerably less PIMs despite playing many more games and getting more body checks.

You guys can keep coming with the "it's not truly random" argument, but why would you classify it as something else? Maybe getting a PLAYER-committed penalty is not truly random, but it pretty much is for AI-committed penalties. You can avoid getting a penalty as a player but you can't avoid getting them from the CPU.

Better way of putting it.. you can never touch the controller/keyboard but commit penalties regardless. Whether or not playing style factors into it is irrelevant because coaches are still affected by randomness.

Edited by Premium

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You can't control whether or not you get PIMs, so is it not random? If penalties were NOT random there would be a way to never get them. The computer committing a penalty is random. You can't control whether a computer commits a penalty or not, it just happens.

Stats show that penalties are not player-specific, so it's not a "roster" decision. Many others have had Svoboda and gotten considerably less PIMs despite playing many more games and getting more body checks.

You guys can keep coming with the "it's not truly random" argument, but why would you classify it as something else? Maybe getting a PLAYER-committed penalty is not truly random, but it pretty much is for AI-committed penalties. You can avoid getting a penalty as a player but you can't avoid getting them from the CPU.

Better way of putting it.. you can never touch the controller/keyboard but commit penalties regardless. Whether or not playing style factors into it is irrelevant because coaches are still affected by randomness.

Agree 100%.

Why is this so hard for people to notice or admit? Puzzling.

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You haven't ''shown'' f**king anything you god damn moron you just keep cherry picking s**t that fits your narrative then you congratulate yourself into thinking you got an argument there.

I mean either you're just literally too f**king stupid to comprehend that there's more than ''true random'' and that things can both have a random factor and be player influenced. Jesus christ it's like you have no idea how stats even work

Edited by The Russian Rocket
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I've proven that penalties are correlated to the user, not player. Brutus will ALWAYS have more PIM using Bourque than J&J. Since PIM are correlated to a certain style of gameplay, they are not random per se, but more likely to happen to some than others. If they were truly random, there would be no correlation.

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I've proven that penalties are correlated to the user, not player. Brutus will ALWAYS have more PIM using Bourque than J&J. Since PIM are correlated to a certain style of gameplay, they are not random per se, but more likely to happen to some than others. If they were truly random, there would be no correlation.

The penalties committed by the computers are random.

What if I get 80 pims from the computer and commit 4 myself while brutus gets 60 pims from the computer but commits 50?

Player styles don't have any effect on the randomness, which is why you see guys fluctuate from top to bottom.

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I've proven that penalties are correlated to the user, not player. Brutus will ALWAYS have more PIM using Bourque than J&J. Since PIM are correlated to a certain style of gameplay, they are not random per se, but more likely to happen to some than others. If they were truly random, there would be no correlation.

Player styles don't have any effect on the randomness, which is why you see guys fluctuate from top to bottom.

These are two different opinions: Raph says users DO affect PIMS, Plabax says they don't.

My gut feeling is they do, as Raph says. But I would love to see the proof Raph mentioned? He gave one example (Brutus vs J&J using Bourque) but I know he is a stats guy and would agree the sample size is too small... Has anyone done some serious analysis with a bigger sample size? (Let's try and kill off at least one of these zombie threads that Plabax keeps alive!) ;)

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The stats are all sitting there for GDL 12 through 16 on the Classic Site for anyone to see. I don't know why anyone expects someone to re-type them into a Smoz style format here.

#1 Ray Bourque has been the top guy or almost the top guy in Penalty Minutes, around 60 PM's a season for all of these seasons. He has been on multiple owners teams. I'm not sure about before GDL 12, but it's hard against to argue that an aggressive, fast, heavy checking defenseman like Ray gets a lot of penalties called on him.

#2 Under TEAM STAT LEADERS, and scrolling from Summary to PP/PK page, it shows HOW MANY power plays (PP) and how many penalty kills (PK) each coach has been on, including his success at this. ALMOST EVERY COACH seems to gravitate to some combo around 70-75 PP & 70-75 PK.

A few exceptions, this MOST notable is SKIP!!! Captain Patience, ZEPP, managed to get a ton of penalties one season as well.

The biggest argument for/against penalties and them being random is that it effects the outcomes of the games. ON THAT FRONT, the stats are NOT showing this. I'm seeing it average out to 70 to 75 chances for an advantage and 70 to 75 chances of being disadvantaged.

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Looking just at last season, FPB as an example. He's a guy that obviously feels you draft your team, and if you draft the wrong guys, you land in the BOX. If you play like a dummy, you land in the box.

He had 70 Power plays to 66 Penalty kills. This is hardly someone who had the advantage last season.

Now, while on the power play 70 times, he scored 41 goals, but gave up 20 Short hand goals.

On the 70 PP, he was + 21 goals.

Now, while in the penalty kill 66 times, he scored 28 goals and gave up 30.

Clearly, the penalty box cost him -2 goals.

So, while in a penalty situation, he scored 69 goals and gave up 50.

WHILE NOT in a penalty he scored 351 goals and gave up 156.

Despite being a conservative player, not a spaz on the checking, and drafting "smart", FPB does not show any strong advantage for his penalty time.

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I've been on the lower end of the shorthanded spectrum for every single registered seasons I've been in.

Either I'm the luckiest person alive or I'm a Wizard clearly

Edited by The Russian Rocket

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I am getting confused. Isn't it still random regardless of consitency?

Say you flip a coin, heads is a penalty and tails is not a penalty.

If you flip a coin 5 times you are likely to get less penalties than if you flipped it 500 times. There is still a 50/50 chance each time you flip a coin, so wouldn't it still be random if the guy who flips 500 coins consistently has more penalties than the guy who flips 5?

Not everyone flips the same amount of coins, so you can't see it, but it still truly is random. Am I wrong here?

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The biggest argument for/against penalties and them being random is that it effects the outcomes of the games. ON THAT FRONT, the stats are NOT showing this. I'm seeing it average out to 70 to 75 chances for an advantage and 70 to 75 chances of being disadvantaged.

It DEFINITELY effects outcomes of games, for everyone. We're not arguing that some guys get screwed much more than others or that over time it doesn't even out. We've all won games because the other guy has gotten completely screwed over by refs and also lost them for the same reason. It happens all the time. These AI penalties committed by the computer are the ones myself, Plab, TK and Co. cannot stomach. And how OFTEN they occur.

Computer committed penalties are at least 50% of infractions, probably more like 75%. Sure, better skaters and more aggressive/checking players get more on AI. But it happens all the time that guys who don't fit that description take AI penalties. Those are random slot machine games. I'd much rather see all games decided mostly by skill than everyone get a share of freebie wins and losses. To reiterate, yes long term it evens out, but in the short term AI penalties f*ck one coach over while awarding the other with a massive advantage. That is luck-based/randomness and turns 94 into a joke at times.

Edited by Uncle Seth

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It DEFINITELY effects outcomes of games, for everyone. We're not arguing that some guys get screwed much more than others or that over time it doesn't even out. We've all won games because the other guy has gotten completely screwed over by refs and also lost them for the same reason. It happens all the time. These AI penalties committed by the computer are the ones myself, Plab, TK and Co. cannot stomach. And how OFTEN they occur.

Computer committed penalties are at least 50% of infractions, probably more like 75%. Sure, better skaters and more aggressive/checking players get more on AI. But it happens all the time that guys who don't fit that description take AI penalties. Those are random slot machine games. I'd much rather see all games decided mostly by skill than everyone get a share of freebie wins and losses. To reiterate, yes long term it evens out, but in the short term AI penalties f*ck one coach over while awarding the other with a massive advantage. That is luck-based/randomness and turns 94 into a joke at times.

So, I went and looked at the playoff stats. ONLY TWO COACHES in the past 3 playoffs got a major difference in their playoff stats.

OF COURSE, last season, Seth 16 Power plays to 26 Penalty Kills.

The other one, HABS vs Brutus, when the beat down at the Brutus cave took place :)

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So, for one series, I can concede that penalties can change the course of who would have an advantage.

I can't say it makes one guy a champion or the other guy a loser, etc.

IT's all been in the game since GDL 1, no??

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i dont remember a lot of computer penalties happening, i definitely feel like considerably more user penalties happen than cpu ones

i just find it kind of lame that you can check someone one time and its no penalty, but another time you could check the exact same way and it sets you back a man for 2 mins

the guys who have low pims want penalties on and the guys who have high want em off. As a coach they help me cuz i dont get a lotta penalties, but i find them to only dampen the spirit of fairness and fun

the only deserved penalty would be hooking, all the rest are never justified

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i dont remember a lot of computer penalties happening, i definitely feel like considerably more user penalties happen than cpu ones

i just find it kind of lame that you can check someone one time and its no penalty, but another time you could check the exact same way and it sets you back a man for 2 mins

the guys who have low pims want penalties on and the guys who have high want em off. As a coach they help me cuz i dont get a lotta penalties, but i find them to only dampen the spirit of fairness and fun

the only deserved penalty would be hooking, all the rest are never justified

I'd like to point everyone to just goto GDL's online stats, goto Team Stats and click on PP/ PK drop down and review GDL 12, 13, 14 & 15. It's 4 seasons of stats.

It shows that almost everyone is averaging about 70Power plays & 70 Penalty Kills. Some guys seem to be closer to 68 range, some guys closer to the 75 mark, and a few guys are WAY above, like Skip, who is in the 90's to 100's on PK's!! (Crazy), but out of 24 coaches each season, there is maybe one or two outliers sitting above the 90 mark. A HUGE MEDIAN sit right around 72 PP, 72 PK.

So, I'm not seeing anyone with a CRAZY advantage. IF style was so real a factor, the stats would bare out right there. They clearly don't, minus Skip :)

For guys to say, well, I play "x" and don't get penalties, isn't bearing out. Also, other guys claiming to get "bent" and their name is NOT Skip, are misleading what these stats show.

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I haven't read this very closely, but it seems like FBP and Plabax are both kinda right?

FPB, from the Blitz 1-7 stats definitely has a huge PP advantage, +28.4% PPs vs PKs (but actually -6 on special teams goals!), much better than anyone except Clockwise (who only played 1 season so his data isn't trustworthy). The reason for that, though, I don't know.

My own Blitz data, I'm the worst for taking penalties, -10.5% PPs vs PKs and -53 goals. A: because I check a lot, and B: because I didn't have the puck a lot because I wasn't very good :)

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I haven't read this very closely, but it seems like FBP and Plabax are both kinda right?

FPB, from the Blitz 1-7 stats definitely has a huge PP advantage, +28.4% PPs vs PKs (but actually -6 on special teams goals!), much better than anyone except Clockwise (who only played 1 season so his data isn't trustworthy). The reason for that, though, I don't know.

My own Blitz data, I'm the worst for taking penalties, -10.5% PPs vs PKs and -53 goals. A: because I check a lot, and B: because I didn't have the puck a lot because I wasn't very good :)

I'm wondering if it's fair to say there seems to be a difference in penalties between Blitz & GDL??

Reason is because whenever Plabax comes up with his arguments, he references Blitz. But, when I'm looking at GDL, I'm seeing almost all these coaches getting very similar PP/ PK's

My reasoning on thinking the PP/ PK my be different is with the weight bug fixed, coaches are more likely to go exclusive C checking, which DOES seem to get you the lead in penalties, as NOTED BY SKIP'S Gdl numbers.

Skip's penalty numbers are a thing of GLORY!

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I'm wondering if it's fair to say there seems to be a difference in penalties between Blitz & GDL??

Reason is because whenever Plabax comes up with his arguments, he references Blitz. But, when I'm looking at GDL, I'm seeing almost all these coaches getting very similar PP/ PK's

My reasoning on thinking the PP/ PK my be different is with the weight bug fixed, coaches are more likely to go exclusive C checking, which DOES seem to get you the lead in penalties, as NOTED BY SKIP'S Gdl numbers.

Skip's penalty numbers are a thing of GLORY!

Definitely could be different. Different players get drafted in Blitz vs GDL, as well, ones more likely to check under AI control (higher Chk rating), but they also suffer from the reverse CB bug, so those D with high AI checking would actually have a tough time hitting successfully (although... does the AI ever do unsuccessful checks? it always looked like they were successful for some reason)

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