aqualizard

Would You Play In 6-man League?

Would You Play in a 6-man League  

12 members have voted

  1. 1. Are small, tight Leagues or Tiers (6 or so partcipants) fine?

    • Yes
    • No, I like bigger Leagues


Recommended Posts

Imagine if Classic had many Tiers in it. Like

A

B

C

or even

A1
A2
B1
B2

B3

C

and in some cases only 6 participants (in a particular tier). Are you fine with that? Or do you strongly prefer to have a bigger League or Tier with more than 6 participants?

Note: This poll stems from this thread: http://forum.nhl94.com/index.php/topic/17722-there-needs-to-be-a-revamp-of-how-leagues-are-run-and-get-back-to-playing-this-game-the-way-it-was-meant-o-be-played/

Edited by aqualizard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only reason this comes up is because we don't have enough players in '94. I'd LOVE a 24 team GDL league of A level players, or even a 12 team, where the regular season mattered and a playoff spot was not guaranteed.

At the same time, when I first started I always liked playing against better guys, it would force me to get better.

For classic, we have always tried to group people into similar groups, depending on sign ups. Particularly for Genesis....SNES has a smaller curve. (Though the same 2-3 buds are dominating there).

I also feel that the top "B" level of GENS players is what mid A level was a few years back. Some real high quality players, but still not quite at the top. So mixing B with new guys is also tougher.

Ultimately it's about having fun. I don't recall a classic season where we put new guys with A level vets. Lots of good points made, but this has been the same argument for many years. I think Brutus nailed it in his other post.

Sorry for the rant, I'm on line, have plenty of time, lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We love rants! :)

My main angle on this -- which may be different than others -- is I think there should be a C level for newbies, to play against other guys that won't trounce them. (And possibly put them off staying.) I have only been playing online for a year, and can name many players that were new and didn't stay. A softer start would help with this I think. Even if it had only 5 or 6 players.

Also, I would be fine playing in a 6 player Tier if it was made up of all solid players that get their games in. In fact, I would rather play with As and Cs that are accessible, than my own level (Bs) that are hard to connect with. (I am not implying Bs are hard to play with, just saying "I want to play" with any level. Many As and Bs are unicorn-style players. That is, hard to find. ;))

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only reason this comes up is because we don't have enough players in '94. I'd LOVE a 24 team GDL league of A level players, or even a 12 team, where the regular season mattered and a playoff spot was not guaranteed.

The thing is, as I mentioned above, I think part of why we don't have more members is *because* we don't have a C tier. It's like the chicken and egg (which came first, No C tier or not enough players to have one?)

If we made a small C tier (newbies only) I believe more would stick around, so more would graduate to B and A, and we would have more players overall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you may be right, aqua. Getting demolished can be very demoralizing for some people and they just won't play. I know lots of the guys who stick around are of the "i like playing guys better than me" types, which is great, but the reason that mentality is quite prevalent is because those are the guys that stick around.

Improving the noob experience should be a goal, in order to increase the size of the community, which will increase the overall skill level over time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There used to be a "C" tier and most would leave because there was no interaction with the "C" community. The "C" players were completely separated from the community. 99% of "C" players definitely had no knowledge of GDL/Blitz/anything else even existing. Most wouldn't even go on the forums.

As for a 6-man league... you may as well make it a tournament. It's a complete joke to have a 6-man league. The CFL is a joke. You can disagree with me, but that would just make you wrong.

------------------------------------------------

If you can't stand getting crushed, you're a baby. Get better at the game. You should never be truly content without being the best. These are the players the community should avoid.

If you only want to play against people your level (when you aren't a high level player), you're a weakling. Plain and simple. I used to be a weakling. Don't be like me.

Edited by Premium

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As for a 6-man league... you may as well make it a tournament. It's a complete joke to have a 6-man league. The CFL is a joke. You can disagree with me, but that would just make you wrong.

This is strong material, Plabax. If you choose to go to college I strongly recommend you try out for the debate team. ;)

There used to be a "C" tier and most would leave because there was no interaction with the "C" community. The "C" players were completely separated from the community. 99% of "C" players definitely had no knowledge of GDL/Blitz/anything else even existing. Most wouldn't even go on the forums.

You may be right.

But, my feeling is you are not. My feeling is there were some newbs in that C Tier that would have stayed, but the Community and the Vets failed them. We need to nurture our new players. When these C tiers happened, my feeling is not enough Veterans reached out to them, and made them aware of forum posts, and how the different leagues work, and engaged them appropriately? And my fear is the interactions they had with Vets were few and far between, if any, and sometimes unpleasant. (You are aware, Plabax,, that there are some people here that are considered "difficult", right? ;))

Anyway, I do try to engage newbies currently, and if there were a C league, I would be happy to continue to do so, and happy to do my part to help the community grow.

Edited by aqualizard
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There used to be a "C" tier and most would leave because there was no interaction with the "C" community. The "C" players were completely separated from the community. 99% of "C" players definitely had no knowledge of GDL/Blitz/anything else even existing. Most wouldn't even go on the forums.

As for a 6-man league... you may as well make it a tournament. It's a complete joke to have a 6-man league. The CFL is a joke. You can disagree with me, but that would just make you wrong.

------------------------------------------------

If you can't stand getting crushed, you're a baby. Get better at the game. You should never be truly content without being the best. These are the players the community should avoid.

If you only want to play against people your level (when you aren't a high level player), you're a weakling. Plain and simple. I used to be a weakling. Don't be like me.

This is just your opinion. That's great if that's how you want to play the game, but that doesn't mean others need to do the same.

We should avoid players who just want to come on the site and play some competitive games? That's stupid. I guess I should I leave the site, then? I've almost never practiced/exhi'd. I practiced 8 games vs Raph before Ko94 Toronto. I could be way better at this game, but getting better at this game has never been a priority for me. Did you know, way way back 10 years ago, there were people who were upset that all these cheesy league players were taking over the forums, instead of just sharing info about modding the game? I made Blitz into A/B leagues to keep the scores closer. (I tried having a C/Farm league but I was too lazy to make it any good)

If you want better players, you need more players. Some will want to be great. Most just want something to do in their downtime after getting home from work or while the kids are asleep or whatever. There's nothing wrong with that.

Like aqualizard said, if C players left because they weren't engaged with the forums or more veteran/involved players, then that was just as much our failing as theirs.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is just your opinion. That's great if that's how you want to play the game, but that doesn't mean others need to do the same.

We should avoid players who just want to come on the site and play some competitive games? That's stupid. I guess I should I leave the site, then? I've almost never practiced/exhi'd. I practiced 8 games vs Raph before Ko94 Toronto. I could be way better at this game, but getting better at this game has never been a priority for me. Did you know, way way back 10 years ago, there were people who were upset that all these cheesy league players were taking over the forums, instead of just sharing info about modding the game? I made Blitz into A/B leagues to keep the scores closer. (I tried having a C/Farm league but I was too lazy to make it any good)

If you want better players, you need more players. Some will want to be great. Most just want something to do in their downtime after getting home from work or while the kids are asleep or whatever. There's nothing wrong with that.

Like aqualizard said, if C players left because they weren't engaged with the forums or more veteran/involved players, then that was just as much our failing as theirs.

You can play against players your own skill level, but you shouldn't AVOID playing against those who are better than you. It makes sense to avoid playing against those who are clearly worse, but the other way around is a no go.

I don't care what you think. If you are looking for "competitive" games, then you are trying to win. If you are more content with winning at a lower level than being the best, then you are a coward.

Either you completely play for FUN and not care about the results, or you play for competitiveness and try to be the best. I don't believe in the idea of "playing for fun in a competitive setting". That's just negative thinking and it leads to low self-esteem.

If you play for FUN, you don't care who you play against and you don't care if you win or lose.

If you play for COMPETITIVENESS, you want to be the best. You should never achieve maximum happiness by playing in the B leagues (like dcicon).

Bottom line: you are a coward if you whine about getting owned, cheer about owning scrubs, and desperately try to avoid improving at the game. Getting owned is part of the game. If you want to play to win, get better.

Edited by Premium

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For classic, we have always tried to group people into similar groups, depending on sign ups. Particularly for Genesis....SNES has a smaller curve. (Though the same 2-3 buds are dominating there).

I'm perplex... I remember the Classic 2013 Fall where you won the A league and the D league at the same time. So if you call that similar group...

I'm here since 2010, for me the 1st problem in the Classic was the replacement coaches, they were put in any league, without any regard of there level, the result was unbalance competitions. This shouldn't happen, replacement coaches need to have the proper level to enter in a league. The competition will be more equitable, and the record table would be more significant.

I imagined time ago, that we can use a rating system similar to chess. With an Elo rating, it would be easier to dispatch all the players in the different leagues and find the adequate replacement coach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've participated in several smaller leagues, some as small as 6 players.

For all the jabber about "maximum compete", there is just as much enjoyment in quick drafts, and complete seasons.

Coach has it right, Skip too.

Every league should be about the play-offs, and smaller leagues get you there faster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the pole question on its own is almost silly.

Of course, if 6 guys want to do a league, it's completely legit. Hell, my brother & I used to make up 2 man leagues and edit teams/force trades in order to do our drafts in many different sporting games.

The real issue would be, IS 6 man leagues the answer to participation levels being so low.

Probably no. I mean, even without a website, just keeping records in google docs, on paper, etc, any 6 guys could run their own league. You don't need "permission".

BUT, here lies the REAL issue. In order to do a league, you need guys to agree on terms & conditions to be motivated enough to dedicate the next month. You also need to find 6 coaches that feel they are evenly skilled. So, the fact that we don't see 6 man leagues popping up on short term, here & there, is because there are not enough guys ready/willing to do them.

I tried to run 2 tournaments. One was an elite A. One guy deciding to not play for a while, and bam, the tourney was dead mid-way. The B one never got off the ground because it took too long to get to enough guys and then I got too busy to manage it, plus I was already sour from A tourney.

So, long winded thing, but with participation so low, its very difficult to get people checking in every day enough to make it work.

I strongly recommend anyone trying to do a 6 man tourney to have everyone's cell phone number. At least you can communicate enough to get it setup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm perplex... I remember the Classic 2013 Fall where you won the A league and the D league at the same time. So if you call that similar group...

I'm here since 2010, for me the 1st problem in the Classic was the replacement coaches, they were put in any league, without any regard of there level, the result was unbalance competitions. This shouldn't happen, replacement coaches need to have the proper level to enter in a league. The competition will be more equitable, and the record table would be more significant.

I imagined time ago, that we can use a rating system similar to chess. With an Elo rating, it would be easier to dispatch all the players in the different leagues and find the adequate replacement coach.

The D league was a unique 20 game league that Halifax/Chaos supported. It was not a lower skill level than C. It does show though, that we did have an A/B/C that year!

No "A" level player has ever been a replacement coach that was allowed to compete for the B/C title. Only used to fill games. Other way around almost always goes to guys who bug me that they want to play in A, or are happy to fill in.

Don't be confused, I'm 100% in agreement on skill levels and setting up leagues. That's always been the intent from the beginning.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for Classic, growing the site, I'd have 3 comments.

Pearate is right about replacement coaches being of the same level. I think that hurts guys who have grinded out 30 plus games, and then see some other coach not show up, get replaced by a coach that easily goes on to destroy their Cup dreams.

But, this leads to point 2. If you have a C level league, none of them KNOW how to navigate and find each other yet, and more guys in C sign up and don't show than you'd imagine. This creates big holes in the league needing replacement coaches, which is often only the B guys who are around more, which then ends up with the B guy crushing the C guy's dreams. ALL C leagues would require someone micro-managing participation and helping be a go-between for games, kind of how Halifax ran his Dynasty league in year 1, prodding guys when he saw them online to find each other. And, that would require one dedicated mo-fo.

3rd point is I love the site, but find the LAYOUT completely chaotic. I also think open debate and league chats are "nice", but do NOT make a coherent front to a site/forum. I think if you wanted to gear the site to growing, you'd want to make it easier for them to figure out it's history, where to read first, and keep these type of "noob" rants in the background where members already know where to go to find it. Just stating, if new guys pop on and read about Tony's Green Bay tourney, that's a plus. They catch a Hokkee cap rant, or Plabax calling everyone quiters, and their odds of participation just went down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Make it easier for new guys to mesh to the community. Using aim, which does work but as a platform is very oldschool is not good. This will cut off maybe 1/2 of people to turn away, making it that much harder for them to connect. It's not technically hard, but very few will take the effort to install an outdated msg system. Also not many will start at a message board unless being real enthusiasts. Something easy to connect what majority are using already and allows instant messaging and group chats, when and if they like the games they will take the effort to register on boards as well, perhaps.

AIM mobile does not work from Finland and seems to be geoblocked to get to chat. I think this was the case from Poland as well.

It's a message that is indirectly involved to the subject. I like bigger leagues myself, but 6 player leagues are fine and not taking anything away from me.

As a sidenote I would love to play in classic, but still missing a computer and ditched out from Poland, so back in Finland. Have to see if I could play from any of my friends.

Edited by Depch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The D league was a unique 20 game league that Halifax/Chaos supported. It was not a lower skill level than C. It does show though, that we did have an A/B/C that year!

No "A" level player has ever been a replacement coach that was allowed to compete for the B/C title. Only used to fill games. Other way around almost always goes to guys who bug me that they want to play in A, or are happy to fill in.

Don't be confused, I'm 100% in agreement on skill levels and setting up leagues. That's always been the intent from the beginning.

Ok, my mistake then

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No "A" level player has ever been a replacement coach that was allowed to compete for the B/C title. Only used to fill games. Other way around almost always goes to guys who bug me that they want to play in A, or are happy to fill in.

Brutus in this past spring w montreal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brutus in this past spring w montreal

He finished 11-29 in A with MTL. I think you, Texas and Ba55 had the same chance of winning, though choosing HFD was the bigger challenge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He finished 11-29 in A with MTL. I think you, Texas and Ba55 had the same chance of winning, though choosing HFD was the bigger challenge.

It's on our appreciation, personally I don't think there is a good perception on what is a B level...

In my opinion, A, B and C level are not so objective.

I see there is A+ players, we can call them Elite players or Hardcore players , for example, Carse when he was at his top, Flaming, Icestorm, you Kingraph, Premium, AJ, Canadiansfan, Freydey and maybe swow at the time. Sorry if I forgot someone, I just site the players who I played against, with unforgettable moment.

So if an A player finish 11-29 in A Classic, that's not suppose automatically that he is a B player, just an A players who lost against the the Hardcore players in here.

Elite, A, B, C, are more accurate, and pretty sure that there is a D level, even more.

Personally, I was hoping there were promotion and relegation introduce with the time, a player can refuse his promotion if he prefer to play in his courante level. This is a logical way to equilibrate the competition. If a coach don't play 70 % of his games without any good reason, he is puled out for 1 or 2 season or more, depending on the percentage of play.

2 division with maybe 10 or 12 team per level could be the good approach. Best of 7 for the 8 first, promotion for the 2 finalists, and relegation for the lowest coach on each division, or a barrage playoff with the 4 lowest ranked coaches. This could regenerate the interest on Classic and link seasons with long-term goal, and maybe encourage coaches to play all their games.

Edited by Pearate

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Elite, A, B, C, is more accurate, and pretty sure that there is a D level, even more.

This is true. There is a top half and bottom half of A. (Top half you call Elite.)

And B is guys that are decent, and (usually) have experience playing online. (There are a couple new guys I have seen in the past year that somehow start at mid-B skill level, like CBK. He would have won any "C" entry level league, probably.)

Then C, guys that are new to online play.

I don't see a D level myself. I would group it with C.

Edited by aqualizard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any players who are "weak A, strong B", "weak B, strong C" will always be difficult to place. They will either be a favorite to win their league, or a longshot in the other league.

And if we ever have 12 "A" elite, 12 "low A" level, 12 "pure "B", 12 "C", etc sign up for classic, that's exactly how we would set the leagues up!

But because we have such inconsistency in Classic sign-ups from season to season, I try to make it as fair and balanced as possible each season. That's why we have anywhere from 8-16 in each league, and I even tried a big league where "A" guys got weaker teams. The vast majority of people have fun and enjoy playing, even if that means not winning a title. There will always be divisions with clear favorites, and underdogs.

I also do a type of relegation, based on prior seasons and current gameplay. I have had a pretty good handle on all of the current GENS players and their skill level. And I almost always reach out to folks on the bubble to ask what they prefer. Some want a chance to win a title in a B or C league, some want the challenge of playing in A or B.

There is a considerable amount of thought and effort put into this each season, with the goal of making it fun for everyone involved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is true. There is a top half and bottom half of A. (Top half you call Elite.)

And B is guys that are decent, and (usually) have experience playing online. (There are a couple new guys I have seen in the past year that somehow start at mid-B skill level, like CBK. He would have won any "C" entry level league, probably.)

Then C, guys that are new to online play.

I don't see a D level myself. I would group it with C.

D, E, or more, come in sense if you decide to split the coaches in a equal number on each level. (see above, I edited my post)

We can split all the B coaches in B1, B2, B3... group and have a C for the lowest. I prefer Elite, A, B, C, D etc, whit an equal number in each. Depending of the number of coaches who enter in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I, in particular, seem to beat up on any B player minus Ba55 when I have Roy on my team.

Unlike A+ players, most guys of any skill enjoy playing me cause it's hard hitting hockey, little tricks & you generally don't get blown out & have a chance of winning. But in the playoffs, I seem to take it more seriously.

However, when you look at it like this. You were in B league, were one of the favorites for over a month, and suddenly, you are an underdog, I can understand that frustration. However if you were struggling to find guys to play to get your games in, you are probably also happy to see that replacement coach.

i think if you replayed those playoffs 10 times, I'm still winning each one. There is enough of a separation gap between me & any player labeled B.

If you look at my games I lost vs the elites last season, they were all close for the most part plus i had the lowest rated team.

I don't mention it to debate it, but if B guys are bringing it up, we should probably consult those guys in the future prior to replacing their slackers with a coach in the A league, even if his credentials lack.

That said, as a commish myself, I'm not critizing Raph & actually would have made the same moves. Just noting for in the future for Classic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any players who are "weak A, strong B", "weak B, strong C" will always be difficult to place. They will either be a favorite to win their league, or a longshot in the other league.

And if we ever have 12 "A" elite, 12 "low A" level, 12 "pure "B", 12 "C", etc sign up for classic, that's exactly how we would set the leagues up!

But because we have such inconsistency in Classic sign-ups from season to season, I try to make it as fair and balanced as possible each season. That's why we have anywhere from 8-16 in each league, and I even tried a big league where "A" guys got weaker teams. The vast majority of people have fun and enjoy playing, even if that means not winning a title. There will always be divisions with clear favorites, and underdogs.

I also do a type of relegation, based on prior seasons and current gameplay. I have had a pretty good handle on all of the current GENS players and their skill level. And I almost always reach out to folks on the bubble to ask what they prefer. Some want a chance to win a title in a B or C league, some want the challenge of playing in A or B.

There is a considerable amount of thought and effort put into this each season, with the goal of making it fun for everyone involved.

Sure, nothing to say about the effort who are put in. I appreciate since the beginning. Not so sure that the new players can see all of this. As I can see, the future of the Classic looks not so good. Less and less motivated players every years. And in result no new players for the other leagues.

What do we want, an NHL94 group who will dying, or do we want to have a sustainable competition ?

I thing we need a brainstorm action, with a refresh or a reboot.

My goal is to progress every season without some special training, maybe I can won a cup one day.

Having a promotion or relegation in level season after season, with clear goals would enjoy me. But maybe it's a personal point of view.

Edited by Pearate

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.