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What if the community had listened to hokkee?

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I want your honest thoughts on how you think the community would look today had we taken hokkee's advice. I personally think we would be better off. Hokkee always had great suggestions, but he was always ridiculed, even by the moderators. When I look back it at, everything he said turned out to be true.

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Some people take things more emotional and he was probably the first to burst out openly on a very real issue but I don't recall much constructive stuff, but it was a reaction to a real problem. His emotional bursts did kinda assasinate his character so not many took him seriously, he did that to himself but it was a reaction to real problems, he was just more sensitive.

There are two types of players, those who take the game very casual for the fun and for a small escape to get your mind off from work and family stuff, they might also like the retro feel and live the nostalgia. Then we have those who still want to compete with the game actively.

The player base is not very big currently so the leagues run are only a few. We also have the problem of playing the game under two different platforms which creates even more separation with the player base. The separation between casual players and active ones was a big reason for Plablegs and it rejuvenated the active player base at the start at least. Leaving the casual players out however would leave them out of the leagues all together and cut off even more player base. How to approach the problem without shooting yourself in the leg in long run is important. If casual players are left out, things will only wither out and die slowly. I have witnessed this type of thing in multiple old gaming communities where elitist approach cuts themselves off from a pool of new possible players and it stays alive but little by little withers away as no new players get in.

In the end this is an emulator game that is related to the mid 90's game, but a great one indeed. We have two separate platforms that creates more player split. We have the competitive gamers and we have the casual players. We don't have enough active players for multiple leagues. We have multiple sites for nhl94 that can be confusing to the random player googleing up nhl94 in nhl94.com, nhl94online.com, nhl94rocks and then we have the forum. New playerbase must mainly come from the younger generation that in general to my understanding has a low attention span / read things fast is it interesting or not, walls of text are usually not and they might move on from nhl94.com fast. Unifying that stuff and making it interesting and simple will be one key thing. Separate forum & AIM are things of old in my mind, there are no other gaming communities under AIM, AIM apps don't work in mobile outside of NA etc. Only the most interested ones will make the jump to register, but not the ones who are split in between decision of to take the effort to look in to this or not.

The latter ideas could possibly just solve the problem with enhancing interest and making it easier for new players to hop in and increase the player base slowly. The live tournaments do their own share and Mikey is doing great promotion with his documentary, but perhaps live tournaments are full of casual players outside of the regular visitors from this site. There is potential, however that requires much effort from the guys running the show and people have to make a living as well.

Edited by Depch

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Hokkee offered many constructive criticisms. Your memory serves you very wrong.

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8 hours ago, Premium said:

Hokkee offered many constructive criticisms. Your memory serves you very wrong.

I think if you were sincere in your desire to have a debate/discussion, you would have listed hokkee's constructive thoughts & offered an actual opinion on how you think he was right.

 

but I smell a rat style move by you, so I'm going to just suggest anyone not wanting to get drawn into some twat game by Plabax, to do as I am, and move on from this thread.

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Well yes this thread cannot be used as a way to build guilt on other people. The issues run deeper and I do not believe there was not much to be done reacting then to that of how things have become more strict in leagues now.

Maybe a nhl94online / nhl94.com built in ladder will offer something to the more casual players and have some strict leagues for the more active ones. That way no one will be left out of anything, also some leagues for everyone like Classic. Focus on the positive not the negative for negative energy will self manifest more easily.

Edited by Depch

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24 minutes ago, Brutus said:

I think if you were sincere in your desire to have a debate/discussion, you would have listed hokkee's constructive thoughts & offered an actual opinion on how you think he was right.

This is needed.  We need to know what exactly we are talking about here, if we are going to judge it? 

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You guys are seriously acting like you don't know what hokkee had to say? I can understand aqualizard; he wasn't around.

Hokkee was the biggest advocate for kicking out slackers, shortening seasons and having less coaches to improve the flow of the seasons and keep the interest up. He also was a fan of real checkpoints. You guys know this and I'm not even sure why I just typed this.

How I think he's right.... well, it's not rocket science. The slackers were never punished, the seasons were always too long and they had too many coaches. There was no flow in them because they were too long, and as a result the interest levels diminished. 

Edited by Premium
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I have seen (some of) hokkee's posts to that effect.  I think those are all good ideas. (I am not sure if you cherry picked.) But some of his "message" may have been lost in some very erratic, possibly drunken/high (or manic) posts he left, too. (Not to belittle a battle with the bottle, or mental issues.)

The thing is, it is like herding cats trying to get change around here.  It is slow, or doesn't happen at all.  That is just the institutional culture here.  Unfortunately.

I think the best approach is exactly what you are doing: Make your own league, with your own rules, and enforce it as you see fit.  I like your small, tight, quick Plablegs league, and I like your strict enforcement of the checkpoints.  (I recognize it is a personal preference, and people have differing viewpoints.)  You have taken action, and that may affect real change.  That is the right approach.  Lamenting on what could have been is a waste of time. :)

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Well said. I just wanted to hear people's honest thoughts. Waste of time or not, I'm curious to hear what people really think.

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2 hours ago, Premium said:

How I think he's right.... well, it's not rocket science. The slackers were never punished, the seasons were always too long and they had too many coaches. There was no flow in them because they were too long, and as a result the interest levels diminished. 

Well said!

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Plabs is trying to change the culture around here so that it's more efficient.  Hokkee had the same goal but his style was brash and he became a joke to some people.  Plabs created his own league specifically for this reason, as many of us who feel the same have had our pleas and suggestions ignored.  Look at the GP completion of Plablegs.  It's a thing of beauty.  Many of us love it the setup of it, and loathe the unpunished slacking, dragged out seasons that have become the norm here for a long time.  It takes the fun out of for a lot of guys.  This place is losing coaches (and will continue to) and nothing has been done to try to stem that tide.  What a shame it was to lose Ba55ist, a great dude and coach who was quickly increasing his skill level.  He decided it just wasn't worth the time investment given how inefficient the leagues were. 

Although Plabs created it, Plablegs is as much my "baby" as it is his.  This is why Plabs "picked" who he wanted in his league and exactly why it's been so efficient so far.  You don't play your games in time? Over the wall you go!  Atrocious connection that tortures opponents? Over the wall you go!  Disappear for weeks at a time and hold things up? Adios amigo.  

The design of Plablegs and management of the league has been a breath of fresh air.  It's been inspiring to see what can be done if expectations are established and enforced.  For some of us, it's like "hey, maybe we can change this place for the better".  Then Brutus makes his league that reverts back to the old ways, and I think Plabs feels like the progress has been undermined.  Sure, Brutus can make whatever league he wants and his intentions are good.  People will join and most likely have a lot of fun. Yet it doesn't change the fact that it seems like we're going backwards and the wind has been taken out of the sails.  The ones who have been demanding a change in culture are once again alienated.  At least that's how I feel. 

This site is dying and none of you can see it happening.  The community should have listened to hockey.  They still don't get it and it seems they never will.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Uncle Seth
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1 hour ago, aqualizard said:

I have seen (some of) hokkee's posts to that effect.  I think those are all good ideas. (I am not sure if you cherry picked.) But some of his "message" may have been lost in some very erratic, possibly drunken/high (or manic) posts he left, too. (Not to belittle a battle with the bottle, or mental issues.)

The thing is, it is like herding cats trying to get change around here.  It is slow, or doesn't happen at all.  That is just the institutional culture here.  Unfortunately.

I think the best approach is exactly what you are doing: Make your own league, with your own rules, and enforce it as you see fit.  I like your small, tight, quick Plablegs league, and I like your strict enforcement of the checkpoints.  (I recognize it is a personal preference, and people have differing viewpoints.)  You have taken action, and that may affect real change.  That is the right approach.  Lamenting on what could have been is a waste of time. :)

agree with 95% of it.  Aqua understands.  JJ too.

Edited by Uncle Seth

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Plablegs is great, it's been fum with the pace, actually I could even prefer a faster pace to keep an intense feel on it. It is a prime model for how to run an elite league. Wish it would have existed earlier, that alone would only have been a temporary fix to prolong interest of some players.

There is the problem, if only such leagues would exist there would be very little left for casual players and that cuts the elite leagues from pool of players as well and things would only wither down. Only that model is a result for a dying game. NHL94 has been around for 20+ years, nothings gonna happen to that, even if one online community would fall, somewhere it's still played and a communities can rise again. Been there, seen that. I have seen communities of old games die off a couple of times and it always starts with low player pool and elite players not being satisfied with how things are with the rest.

This is a really tough problem to solve and that requires a lot of effort especially from the guys working with the site and they have already provided so much. We have the external marketing going on well with nhl94 documentary coming up and Mikey started the run on live tournaments as well. There is a huge potential, just requires a lot of work, maybe too much. Player base online must grow for there to keep everyone happy, some other ideas are welcome and perhaps the ladder to main site could work for guys who don't play so often but want their share online and just can't keep up with "eliteleagues".

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12 hours ago, Depch said:

If casual players are left out, things will only wither out and die slowly. I have witnessed this type of thing in multiple old gaming communities where elitist approach cuts themselves off from a pool of new possible players and it stays alive but little by little withers away as no new players get in.
 

But the opposite has been occurring.  The casual players who continually refuse to change their behavior or just unable for whatever reason to adapt, are the ones driving away the committed coaches.  The coaches who are the most serious about fixing things are the ones who will leave when their complaints and suggestions aren't considered.  The casual people will always be around because they could care less either way, strict league, lax league, anything goes for them. 

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1 minute ago, Uncle Seth said:

But the opposite has been occurring.  The casual players who continually refuse to change their behavior or just unable for whatever reason to adapt, are the ones driving away the committed coaches.  The coaches who are the most serious about fixing things are the ones who will leave when their complaints and suggestions aren't considered.  The casual people will always be around because they could care less either way, strict league, lax league, anything goes for them. 

Yes, this is true. As I said early I wish this would have existed earlier, however I do not see that this is the sole fix to the problem. The problem as a whole is much larger. Who knows how many of the coaches were losing interest due to slack/lengthened seasons or just because it was time. Old players will always move out and some will come back, but if there is no new pool coming up, that's the problem and things will eventually just quiet down. I have seen this happen before multiple times.

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2 minutes ago, Depch said:



There is the problem, if only such leagues would exist there would be very little left for casual players and that cuts the elite leagues from pool of players as well and things would only wither down. Only that model is a result for a dying game. NHL94 has been around for 20+ years, nothings gonna happen to that, even if one online community would fall, somewhere it's still played and a communities can rise again. Been there, seen that. I have seen communities of old games die off a couple of times and it always starts with low player pool and elite players not being satisfied with how things are with the rest.
 

There's a rule in business that states that it's much easier to keep your existing customers than to try to gain new ones.  I think it applies here.  If you lose or alientate your core constituency, you're doomed and will always be in rebuild more.  But maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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2 minutes ago, Depch said:

Yes, this is true. As I said early I wish this would have existed earlier, however I do not see that this is the sole fix to the problem. The problem as a whole is much larger. Who knows how many of the coaches were losing interest due to slack/lengthened seasons or just because it was time. Old players will always move out and some will come back, but if there is no new pool coming up, that's the problem and things will eventually just quiet down. I have seen this happen before multiple times.

Yes, true.  But we KNOW why some are leaving, so it's best to try to attack the issue we're aware exists as we have voices speaking out about it. 

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Just now, Uncle Seth said:

There's a rule in business that states that it's much easier to keep your existing customers than to try to gain new ones.  I think it applies here.  If you lose or alientate your core constituency, you're doomed and will always be in rebuild more.  But maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Yes, wish it was here earlier so it could've helped with some players not losing interest. Like I said I have seen this happen in other communities already, if you do not acknowledge that and think this is a special case, then we must disagree. This is not black/white, there must be a way to serve everyone like I tried to imply. This is what is happening in Plablegs and what Brutus provides now, keep things open, in such a small _online_ community there is no room to become strictly elitistic here or that is surely the death of it all here. Please do not attack the leagues, they both serve needs.

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9 minutes ago, Depch said:

We have the external marketing going on well with nhl94 documentary coming up and Mikey started the run on live tournaments as well. There is a huge potential, just requires a lot of work, maybe too much. Player base online must grow for there to keep everyone happy, some other ideas are welcome and perhaps the ladder to main site could work for guys who don't play so often but want their share online and just can't keep up with "eliteleagues". 

This is where I'll probably get a lot of backlash.  But I think the outreach to people at these live tourney's has been a complete failure.  Numerous lost opportunities to expand the membership here.  All these tourneys with non-forum attendees, what % of them are even joining the site?  I'm not placing blame on a single person.  But clearly, there have been avenues (the live tourneys) to gain coaches, and nothing comes of it.  If we want to grow the site, you have people in the palm of your hand at these live events, why isn't more being done to get them on board here? 

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1 hour ago, Uncle Seth said:

This is where I'll probably get a lot of backlash.  But I think the outreach to people at these live tourney's has been a complete failure.  Numerous lost opportunities to expand the membership here.  All these tourneys with non-forum attendees, what % of them are even joining the site?  I'm not placing blame on a single person.  But clearly, there have been avenues (the live tourneys) to gain coaches, and nothing comes of it.  If we want to grow the site, you have people in the palm of your hand at these live events, why isn't more being done to get them on board here? 

This is great! Exactly what we need, to fuse our brains together on such issues and make it better. Improve the marketing for a chance for online playing as well, I have no clue what the events are like, just that there is huge potential.

I've been constantly talking about unifying the site. Making it more simpler and appealing for the guys who are 30/70 or 50/50 what they were even looking for when they google nhl94 or nhl online games. For me I would not even stumble upon nhl94online.com, but go to nhl94.com and from the quick look it doesn't seem very appealing and it's also a rule that if things are too many clicks away from getting your interest, people will just leave it. I would like to see leagues in nhl94.com as well directly. Make a ladder there, increase interactivity directly there. There should be a main button for leagues there (edit: I see there is online gaming button, which has league links under that, I even missed that first, lael, blitz link doesn't work though). Sure there are news, but people don't go in to wall of texts when they are unsure what they are looking for, it doesn't catch anyone. I'd check the leagues out for sure via button and that might interest me. Prizes would be cool as well and a small company of affordable men could provide some charity for a league pot. That pot would always interest some people, that hey, this game is being played for money as well like so many others, might look in to this. Online pots don't have to be big, I could afford to support 50$ a year easily.

ps. I also must remind that this community lives off NHL94, the existence of NHL94 and it's popularity is not about this community, this community is just a small part of it all. At best this could bring many of the people together, that is the main thing. We must not put ourselves ahead of all of that. At best this community serves everyone.

Edited by Depch
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4 hours ago, Uncle Seth said:

Yes, true.  But we KNOW why some are leaving, so it's best to try to attack the issue we're aware exists as we have voices speaking out about it. 

Just taking a QUICK look at som vets who have "left" and I don't believe any of them have to do with lax league rules.  Given that Uncle Seth does nothing other than complain and sits "hiding" all day, doesn't necessarily help matters either.

AJ - tired of FPB and Plabax

hokkee - erratic for the last 10 years...plays when he can, complains and disappears for work.  He's never gone

donnybrook - personal issues

probob - work/life, he's back

Sicarius Fulgur - not sure, but doubt he was upset about league times.  Maybe?  Never told me

EA - No time for leagues

Freydey - retired

Zalex - retired with Freydey

Carse - retired

Vocally Caged - retired

BoKnows - SNES player

smozoma - retired, but around

Wittgenstein - retired

Mike_mac - around, but not active

kgman - doesn't play online

minpind - around, not active

xdeathsbloodx - tired of Plabax

kupuck - tired of Plabax

eggink - too busy/no interest

dickon - banned

sebe - too busy

swos - busy w/ life

nahkahomo - tired of Plabax, too busy

flasox - busy, lost interest

LA Robbie - life too busy

TomKabs - no Internet

Houly - ??

Mav - banned/lost interest

JRod - too busy/lost interest

 

.,...

 

 

 

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Haven't read all the posts carefully, but maybe:

Have hardcore leagues AND more casually paced leagues. No reason we can't have both.

Also agree that we totally whiffed on turning tournament participants into online buds.

Someone mentioned a ladder.  I have been throwing around a ladder idea in my brain for months, I'll start working on it. I think it would be really good for getting people excited to play online (watching their rating grow, being able to play against players of a similar level (or higher for experience)), and they wouldn't have to wait around for a league. It'd be a Glicko based system (similar to Elo).

Separation of nhl94.com and nhl94online.com may also be confusing to newcomers.

And I think Raph is right, few guys leave because of slow leagues.

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Putting "retired" or "lost interest" without any reason is not really fair. Each person has a reason for retiring or losing interest, the list above assumes there is absolutely nothing that factors into people retiring or losing interest, as if they just randomly decide to not play anymore or randomly lose all interest. For example, ba55ist would technically fit under the "retired" or "lost interest" category, but he retired/lost interest because of poor league structure.

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Also, many newcomers joined and left because the structure of not just the leagues, but the community (or the websites) were poor in general. I'm sure a lot of noobs were wondering why they were wasting their time in the classic league.

For instance, I remember losing interest in my first two classic seasons because the league was very unorganized. During my first two seasons, I forgot I actually was in the league. That's how little care there was. Each time I would go on, nobody would be around to play, the website didn't have any rules, the checkpoints weren't followed, etc.

I know I can't be the ONLY one in this boat, there are easily over 50 people who left due to the same thing. In my final season of GENS-C, the #1 seed (who was even as good as me) never showed up for the playoffs. He simply forgot about the league because he probably felt it was a joke. Either that, or he died/suffered a serious injury, which I don't believe is the case because his act wasn't uncommon.

The guys I would talk and play with in GENS C (outside of Mike Alonzi) never came back. My AIM list is littered with HUNDREDS of noobs who were in the community for fewer than a season. Take a look at your AIM list, and ask yourselves how many people you can actually remember.

I recruited around 15-20 people to the site, ALL are gone. All left mid-season, never felt the league was serious. The only one to stay for multiple years was methodm3n, and he never really even played much.

Halifax, the admin of the forum and commissioner of the Classic League, can't even play 40% of his games. 19GP in classic, little games the season before that, 0GP in SDL.. There is a connection.

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Ok.  Lot of rambling but a few straight lies in there. 

 

#1.  Depch is smarter than both Plabax & Seth combined.  You should consider listening to him .  He speaks from experience & has more understanding of life.  Both of you appear to struggle with the concept that you two are somewhat mentally challenged, but to everyone else in the room, it's very obvious.

#2. Bassist quit 3 leagues at one time cause every time he came on to play, no one as around.  It started to feel like work to get a game in.  2 of the leagues had just started.  Blaming league structure is a lie.

#3.  Hokkee's biggest b***h was you had ruined the game abusing glitches.  B shot & C/B were taking the game & ruining it & preventing new people from being able to compete as well.  He always complained about slackers, and oddly, was one of the biggest ones.  You guys referencing hokkee are not mentioning he hated both of you & choosing the complaints that fits your narrative.

#4 With no classic this year, I intentionally made my league something different than I normally would do, different than I would want to play in & more structured to keep 20 plus coaches involved. You two only try to do things you like & b***h if the site doesn't go in a direction that makes you happy.

#5 you booted ice & a few other guys.  Next season you are going to be down even more coaches.  At some time, you will have a 2 man league.  If you can't see that depch is warning you of that, you can't read anything that doesn't fit your narrative.

 

that sounds a lot more like you are the snowflake.

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1 hour ago, Brutus said:

Ok.  Lot of rambling but a few straight lies in there. 

 

#1.  Depch is smarter than both Plabax & Seth combined.  You should consider listening to him .  He speaks from experience & has more understanding of life.  Both of you appear to struggle with the concept that you two are somewhat mentally challenged, but to everyone else in the room, it's very obvious.

#2. Bassist quit 3 leagues at one time cause every time he came on to play, no one as around.  It started to feel like work to get a game in.  2 of the leagues had just started.  Blaming league structure is a lie.

#3.  Hokkee's biggest b***h was you had ruined the game abusing glitches.  B shot & C/B were taking the game & ruining it & preventing new people from being able to compete as well.  He always complained about slackers, and oddly, was one of the biggest ones.  You guys referencing hokkee are not mentioning he hated both of you & choosing the complaints that fits your narrative.

#4 With no classic this year, I intentionally made my league something different than I normally would do, different than I would want to play in & more structured to keep 20 plus coaches involved. You two only try to do things you like & b***h if the site doesn't go in a direction that makes you happy.

#5 you booted ice & a few other guys.  Next season you are going to be down even more coaches.  At some time, you will have a 2 man league.  If you can't see that depch is warning you of that, you can't read anything that doesn't fit your narrative.

 

that sounds a lot more like you are the snowflake.

Oh Brutus, what ever shall we do with you.  You can't seem to see the connections, so I won't bother trying to dumb it down to your level.  And talk about emotional, you've had a hard-on for me for a couple years now.  I let it slide pretty much every time.  You get personal with your jabs.  It's a little worrisome.  Mental health is nothing to take lightly.  I can recommend some very effective drugs, as it's clear you need some help with your anger, lashing out, name calling and emotional frailty.  SSRI's, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors.  They work wonders man, believe me.  Things that most people would shrug off, you seem to get extremely irritated by and feel the need to attack!  Those are some (of many) indicators of an underlying issue, be it learned or genetic.  Talk to your doctor dude, this rage of yours is unhealthy.  

Unfortunately, you'd have to cut back on the booze because it can negate the effects of these pills or intensify them.  Zoloft is solid, Paxil too.  They will start you off small, for a couple weeks then gradually increase the dosage.  You may get some side effects, but they are common and generally harmless.  Tremors at night, with or without sweating.  Maybe some indigestion if you take them without food.  Occassionally impotence can kick in, but that can be countered with other pills.  Everyone's had limp-dick before, especially with alcohol.  Anyhow, after about a month, you'll start to be able to deal with things much easier.  You'll feel calmer, happier, and definitely less prone to outbursts.  You'll be able to think more clearly and not get weighed down so much by feelings of anger.  It's a marvelous (I know, gay term to use) place to be.  Come join the club.  

But wait, there's more.......

- feelings of frustration = lessened

- urges to insult people = decreased

- general invagination with daily stressors = much less

 

I can send you some samples if you'd like.  Lemme know.  

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1. We are all speaking from experience in one way or another. 

2. Nobody being around is correlated with league structure. Nobody was around because there was no incentive to play. You are suggesting that better league structure would lead to the same problem? I don't think so. My league GP rate was very high, and at Tecmo they get 100% consistently using the same structure.

3. Hokkee didn't really hate me, nor was his biggest b***h me abusing the game. We ALL know hokkee is infamous for his slacking rants. Saying that he hated my pass shot more is funny. I don't see how you can call me a liar after that one. As for preventing new players from competing, he did rant about that when Raph was playing in most of the classic leagues, and that issue was addressed and handled very well by Raph and Halifax.

4. Your efforts qualify as "making a league", whereas mine counts as "bitching"? Not really. We both made leagues. The name of your league is even modeled after mine! I could have had 20+ people in my league too, I just decided not to. One could argue that you didn't have to change the structure.

5. What is the difference between no coach and a coach that doesn't play?

--------

I didn't lie anywhere, and I'm not so sure Uncle Seth did either. You said I didn't list any of hokkee's constructive criticisms so it held no credibility, but where is your list of our lies? I don't see it.

Nobody is getting mad but brutus and CoachMac, and I don't see why. Seth, Depch, Raph, smozoma, jackandjose and myself have all been able to contribute without making a fuss.

Edited by Premium

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4 hours ago, kingraph said:

Given that Uncle Seth does nothing other than complain and sits "hiding" all day, doesn't necessarily help matters either.

How is what I do, any different than the other guys who are always on green, but they're not actually available to play or even respond?  I get my games in, even with the invisible ink.  Pretty impressive IMO.  If someone IM's someone who's on green, but that person doesn't respond, is it not the exact same principle as IM'ing someone who's invisible and doesn't respond.  The response is what matters.  Being invisible, you don't know if I'm here or not to respond.  Being on green for many guys here is an equivalent status.  If I were to be on green 24/7, but only responded when I was actually at my PC, that would make you less irritated right, but essentially, nothing has changed.  Not responding is the issue, not lack of color.  Or how about some guys who can't even receive messages offline.  Never heard you complain about that, despite it causing problems for other coaches.  

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