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Reordering existing teams in a ROM without redoing everything manually


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@UltraMagnus is currently putting together a '94 ROM for the EIHL (British league), because he is an absolute legend.  I have sorted the team and player details, along with the kits, and have nicked @MonkeyHead's ratings from a '95 ROM for the same league.  It seems to be coming along quite nicely.

The ROM is based on the rosters at the end of the 2019/20 season, which featured (as normal) 10 teams.  Due to Covid, a full 20/21 season is not going ahead as normal, but... a massively shortened season / glorified tournament is going ahead with 4(!) teams only.

When the '94 ROM is completed, there will be 10 teams.  Let's call them teams (1) to (10).  In the ROM, they are naturally in alphabetical order.  However, the four teams that will feature in the season / tournament will be, for sake of argument, teams (1), (3), (5) and (7).

If I wanted to have a stab at putting together a further ROM for the shortened season, as the rosters are completely different due to a one-off drafting system that has been put in place to reallocated players from the wider league across the 4 teams, is there a way of essentially reordering the existing teams in a ROM, so that I could make the first 4 (as reordered (1), (3), (5), (7), (2), (4), (6), (8), (9) and (10)) selectable whilst hiding the rest?  This would save me having to redo everything from scratch, especially the graphics (this is what I have needed a lot of help with to date and I don't want to bother anyone by asking for loads of help with this one, as people have done enough for me as it is).

I have had a look in NOSE but nothing leaps out from the main "teams" section, although I could be looking in the wrong place.

Thanks!

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I'm curious about this myself. Not to give false hope, but I noticed while poking around in NHL98, that the Carolina Hurricanes graphics and roster data were located in the spot between Florida and Los Angeles [where Hartford should be]. So while I know this is possible, in 96-98 at least, it would be related to pointers somewhere in the hex data. The only tiny issues here being that this is assuming that this knowledge is even transferable to the 94 game engine and I have no idea where to find that data anyway.

That said, if it turns out that this isn't possible, I would be willing to volunteer my services to rearrange the graphics. I have a player card EARE companion "tool" that I've been looking to test more anyway. At least that would make the player photos a bit less bother to rearrange.

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6 hours ago, LaTormenta said:

@UltraMagnus is currently putting together a '94 ROM for the EIHL (British league), because he is an absolute legend.  I have sorted the team and player details, along with the kits, and have nicked @MonkeyHead's ratings from a '95 ROM for the same league.  It seems to be coming along quite nicely.

The ROM is based on the rosters at the end of the 2019/20 season, which featured (as normal) 10 teams.  Due to Covid, a full 20/21 season is not going ahead as normal, but... a massively shortened season / glorified tournament is going ahead with 4(!) teams only.

When the '94 ROM is completed, there will be 10 teams.  Let's call them teams (1) to (10).  In the ROM, they are naturally in alphabetical order.  However, the four teams that will feature in the season / tournament will be, for sake of argument, teams (1), (3), (5) and (7).

If I wanted to have a stab at putting together a further ROM for the shortened season, as the rosters are completely different due to a one-off drafting system that has been put in place to reallocated players from the wider league across the 4 teams, is there a way of essentially reordering the existing teams in a ROM, so that I could make the first 4 (as reordered (1), (3), (5), (7), (2), (4), (6), (8), (9) and (10)) selectable whilst hiding the rest?  This would save me having to redo everything from scratch, especially the graphics (this is what I have needed a lot of help with to date and I don't want to bother anyone by asking for loads of help with this one, as people have done enough for me as it is).

I have had a look in NOSE but nothing leaps out from the main "teams" section, although I could be looking in the wrong place.

Thanks!

Hey gents. It is possible, takes some moving things around. But its doable. Ive done both forms of moving teams around and/or starting from scratch. Both take the same amount of time. Literally!!!. I've done it. The easiest thing is to have 2 sessions of NOSE/EARE open and start a rom from scratch and just copy and paste the rosters, team data, lines and kits over to your new rom. The graphics are easy once you've had a completed rom (Ie EIHL 94 - 2021) and just copy and paste from TM over to another session of TM. 

This form is actually about half the time. The hard work is having the original/modded rom and creating something new that takes time. In doing a rom for 4 teams, would literally take a day once the modded EIHL rom is completed.

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1 hour ago, von Ozbourme said:

I'm curious about this myself. Not to give false hope, but I noticed while poking around in NHL98, that the Carolina Hurricanes graphics and roster data were located in the spot between Florida and Los Angeles [where Hartford should be]. So while I know this is possible, in 96-98 at least, it would be related to pointers somewhere in the hex data. The only tiny issues here being that this is assuming that this knowledge is even transferable to the 94 game engine and I have no idea where to find that data anyway.

That said, if it turns out that this isn't possible, I would be willing to volunteer my services to rearrange the graphics. I have a player card EARE companion "tool" that I've been looking to test more anyway. At least that would make the player photos a bit less bother to rearrange.

The same can be done for any NHL series rom. It is just knowing which teams you want to move around and replace the order and than copy and paste. Ill try and put something together. I did it for my NHL 21 - Reloaded from my original NHL20 rom.

Edited by UltraMagnus
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@UltraMagnus - I suspected that it wouldn't be that easy.  Once the 2019/20 '94 ROM is sorted, I will have a stab at trying to convert it (and see if I can work out TM!).  I wasn't sure if there was a "move" option anywhere but I suspected not.

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9 hours ago, UltraMagnus said:

The same can be done for any NHL series rom. It is just knowing which teams you want to move around and replace the order and than copy and paste. Ill try and put something together. I did it for my NHL 21 - Reloaded from my original NHL20 rom.

Figured as much. Glad to hear you're on the case.

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16 minutes ago, von Ozbourme said:

Figured as much. Glad to hear you're on the case.

The good thing is that it can be done for NHL95-98. So, we can alpha the order in all, as well set the divisions as well and schedule. 

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10 hours ago, UltraMagnus said:

The good thing is that it can be done for NHL95-98. So, we can alpha the order in all, as well set the divisions as well and schedule. 

I am curious about this. Haven't had the time to figure this out by myself, but how much does the order affect? Specifically, in '95 it would be nice to have the teams perform in season mode as you might expect their team ratings would suggest. In lieu of being able to edit the behind the scenes ratings [that annoyingly have nothing to do with the pre-game rating number], would arranging your teams to correspond with the ranking of the NHL teams you are replacing, and then alphabetizing them after the fact, mean that the teams would perform more realistically in simulated games?

The additional problem I've encountered with 96-98 is that NOSE doesn't allow you to set the default menu and match-up options [which is too bad since I usually prefer 10 minute periods with line changes]. So in addition to reordering teams to best match the Even-Strength, Power Play, Goalie, etc.. ratings that would determine simulated season and playoff performances, it could also be a workaround for configuring the teams you want to replace the previous year's Stanley Cup finalists.

I just haven't worried about it yet as i don't know how well it would affect what I want to do and would rather avoid wasting the effort for naught.

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1 hour ago, von Ozbourme said:

I am curious about this. Haven't had the time to figure this out by myself, but how much does the order affect? Specifically, in '95 it would be nice to have the teams perform in season mode as you might expect their team ratings would suggest. In lieu of being able to edit the behind the scenes ratings [that annoyingly have nothing to do with the pre-game rating number], would arranging your teams to correspond with the ranking of the NHL teams you are replacing, and then alphabetizing them after the fact, mean that the teams would perform more realistically in simulated games?

The additional problem I've encountered with 96-98 is that NOSE doesn't allow you to set the default menu and match-up options [which is too bad since I usually prefer 10 minute periods with line changes]. So in addition to reordering teams to best match the Even-Strength, Power Play, Goalie, etc.. ratings that would determine simulated season and playoff performances, it could also be a workaround for configuring the teams you want to replace the previous year's Stanley Cup finalists.

I just haven't worried about it yet as i don't know how well it would affect what I want to do and would rather avoid wasting the effort for naught.

Im not a 100% sure if there is actually a specific slot for a team with the 26 that would be perform better. I think there is a byte or 2 in each team that rates their performance. Like why would a team of 25 overalls beat a team of 75. Just doesnt make sense. Ill be doing a sweep of a few teams and see what is different between them. The pre-game ratings Ive managed to change them all in 95. Haven't tested it to see if the performance is different. 

It might be exactly that. Like having a team in CHICAGOs spot will make them the best team. Its something to see.  

I did a test of 10 simulation seasons to see if it did have an impact on the teams spot in the original game in how they perform. And it does!!! In my NHL21-reloaded I ran it and NYR, CAR, DAL, VAN always perform well and MIN, TOR, MTL, NYI, TB perform poorly.

Just so happens these are the spots they hold:

  • NYR are in NYR original spot (4th ranked team in the original game)
  • CAR are in CHI original spot (Best team in the original game)
  • DAL are in DET original spot (2nd ranked team in the original game)
  • VAN  are in PIT original spot (7th ranked team in the original game)
  •  
  • MIN are in EDM original spot (25th ranked team in the original game)
  • TOR are in OTT original spot (21st ranked team in the original game)
  • MTL are in HFD original spot (19th ranked team in the original game)
  • NYI are in NYI original spot (23rd ranked team in the original game)
  • TB are in WPG original spot (18th ranked team in the original game)

So, given this. that byte or two people are wondering what it is...it might actually be the season performance of the team, or potential performance. @kingraph @smozoma @Sauce @Jkline3 @Asher413 and anyone else. Where is that "Byte or 2" in the team data? 

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52 minutes ago, UltraMagnus said:

Im not a 100% sure if there is actually a specific slot for a team with the 26 that would be perform better. I think there is a byte or 2 in each team that rates their performance. Like why would a team of 25 overalls beat a team of 75. Just doesnt make sense. Ill be doing a sweep of a few teams and see what is different between them. The pre-game ratings Ive managed to change them all in 95. Haven't tested it to see if the performance is different. 

Actually I've tested that after @kingraphhelped me find the offset for those pre-game ratings. They don't seem to have any relation to team performance. And frankly the fact that they are hard coded in the game data when you can create and trade players at will just seems weird to me. [I mean, the original NHL Hockey would change the pre-game lineup checkmarks after the player stats were tweaked in NOSE and they didn't even allow trading in that game!]

I can add to that that in my testing of NHL96, whatever the team performance rankings [Powerplay, Goalie, etc...] were, this seemed to correlate with the teams performance in a season. This was why when I was testing my graphics changes in my IIHF mod I would end up using Estonia [originally Detroit]
I also tried editing the teams in both in game trades [traded all of the worst ranked players to Detroit and all of the best ranked players to Ottawa] as well as editing player data in NOSE [changed all Colorado and New Jersey player attributes to 0, overall 40s, and Anaheim and Winnipeg to all 6s, overall 120? (99)] Didn't make a lick of difference. Detroit, Colorado and Jersey still made the playoffs, Ottawa and Anaheim didn't, and Winnipeg was swept in first round.
However, I will note that I tried this again, using Winnipeg as my selected team this time, and they won. But I've already noticed that game does seem to give a stat boost to the player team anyway.

Somewhere in there is also how end of season awards are determined. For example in my IIHF 95 ROM, China's Hua Geng [formerly known as Calgary's Mike Vernon] would routinely win the Vezina despite being rated something more fitting for a 25th ranked team.

The good news is that while 97 seems to suffer from the same faulty logic, 98 seems to have a bit more randomness inserted into the AI. The first two times I tried to sim a complete season, as the defending-and-soon-to-be Stanley Cup Champion Detroit Red Wings no less, I didn't even make the playoffs! I then ran through eight more simmed seasons as different teams and ended up with eight different Champions [none of which were my team]

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there's never been non playable teams in the NHL series (i think anyway), but wouldn't that be good if you wanted boss battles eh?

however there is somewhat a type, and that's in the playoffs, so just selecting the teams required in the playoffs data selection would do that

 

and obviously reordering teams in NOSE because there isn't buttons for that, bit of an oversight me thinks, as you can do that for players

Edited by jenzie
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1 hour ago, jenzie said:

there's never been non playable teams in the NHL series (i think anyway), but wouldn't that be good if you wanted boss battles eh?

however there is somewhat a type, and that's in the playoffs, so just selecting the teams required in the playoffs data selection would do that

 

and obviously reordering teams in NOSE because there isn't buttons for that, bit of an oversight me thinks, as you can do that for players

I assume that you mean the officially released versions of the series.  It can be accomplished in rom hacks as I have non-playable teams in some of my custom roms (by design).  So, it can be done, by restricting teams in EARE (and not just the playoff teams).

You are correct that you can't re-order teams, like players, through NOSE where you push a button to move something up or down.  It's not an oversight.  It's a major programming endeavor!  Especially, as it impacts graphics/mapping and NOSE isn't used for that functionality.  Given what wboy gave us and how much went into it, it isn't an oversight.  Remember, he gave us that software for free and it already makes lives easier so beggers can't be choosers.  :) But, you can use NOSE to manually re-order teams through copy and paste and doing, essentially, the same, through TM.  I've done it that way for several of my roms.  It's a bit time-consuming, no doubt, but it's also not hard to do.

Edited by Sauce
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I agree with @Sauceas that is what I've done to have the NHL95 season mod to reflect the actual NHL season. It is a bit time consuming. But if you have a plan and the tolls to execute it. (Which so many great modders have provided, like @wboyfor NOSE, @smozoma for Ditherer, @Jkline3@kingraphfor his knowledge and many others with what they have provided.  @wboy@smozoma

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3 hours ago, Sauce said:

I assume that you mean the officially released versions of the series.  It can be accomplished in rom hacks as I have non-playable teams in some of my custom roms (by design).  So, it can be done, by restricting teams in EARE (and not just the playoff teams).

You are correct that you can't re-order teams, like players, through NOSE where you push a button to move something up or down.  It's not an oversight.  It's a major programming endeavor!  Especially, as it impacts graphics/mapping and NOSE isn't used for that functionality.  Given what wboy gave us and how much went into it, it isn't an oversight.  Remember, he gave us that software for free and it already makes lives easier so beggers can't be choosers.  :) But, you can use NOSE to manually re-order teams through copy and paste and doing, essentially, the same, through TM.  I've done it that way for several of my roms.  It's a bit time-consuming, no doubt, but it's also not hard to do.

yeah i know what you mean about non selectable teams ;) having like 8 teams available in the menu but the rest outwith that

but can you reorder the team pointers only, since you don't actually have to have the teams data or colours in a particular order, i'm sure i read you could do that on here?  but then the banners ... and we know NOSE cannae do anything with them :P bah

and just trying it myself, player moving doesn't effect line changes either, only if moved from defense to forwards or forwards and defense

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6 hours ago, jenzie said:

and just trying it myself, player moving doesn't effect line changes either, only if moved from defense to forwards or forwards and defense

If you wanted to, you can change that actually.
First time trying out NOSE, I accidentally toggled off "Auto Re-Order Lines on Move" as well as on delete. [the "L" icons on the top of the Players window] Was a bit annoying as I was changing things around and had to fix the lines after each change. Didn't discover the reason for the problem until I moused over all of the icons to see the tool tip pop up.

I can see pros and cons to having that set on or off, although typically setting the lines is one of the last things I do now so it's not that important anymore.

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