Snaking vs. Non-Snaking Draft

[DaDonch44]

I'm just trying to weigh the pros and cons of a snaking vs. non-snaking draft.

(I'm trying to give it an unbiased perspective, and feel free to add your thoughts and opinions.)

For this example, I'm using a basis of 25 teams in the league.

Snaking:

Pros:

- Gives teams at the end of the draft the earlier picks in the even rounds, this levels the playing field by giving all the teams the same disadvantage.

- Favors balance, equal opportunity

Cons:

- Tends to favor teams in the middle of the draft because they won't have as much of a gap between picks.

- Teams have to wait as long as 49 picks to select again. (First and Last Team)

- Defeats purpose of having the weaker teams pick early in 1 round of they have to pick last in the next round.

Non-Snaking:

Pros:

- Gives the weaker teams more opportunities for better players/teams. (Isn't that the point?)

- Teams have to wait the same amount to pick every round. (25 teams, 25 picks), except for the 1st round obviously

Cons:

- Makes teams at the lower end of the draft pick later every round.

What does everyone else think?

[Guest Wags13]

For that many teams, I feel non-snaking is the best way to go.

[backhandfloater]

Easy Solution. Based on your list draft list, have people take turns choosing their draft position. After the positions have been determined, then draft players.

Im a fan of the snake. In the non-snake, if your last pick, you are just F'd.

[smozoma]

Hybrid

1. worst -> best

2. best -> worst

3. worst -> best

4. worst -> best

5. best -> worst

6. worst -> best

7. best -> worst

8. worst -> best

9. best -> worst

10. worst -> best

11. best -> worst

12. worst -> best

Gives a slight advantage to the not-so-good players.

--

As an added thought:

I think snaking makes the draft go faster, since the picks near the start/end of the each round often go fast.

Even if people vote for non-snaking, I think we should snake the last 5 or 6 rounds, since those players are only subs.

[HABS]

wow its deadlocked, I dont know if a hybrid would be fair.

The whole purpose is for weaker teams to get better picks, thats true. But snaking is really fair which is good and bad I guess. hmm tough choice im leaning toward keeping snaking because of the familiarity.

[smozoma]

wow its deadlocked, I dont know if a hybrid would be fair.

The whole purpose is for weaker teams to get better picks, thats true. But snaking is really fair which is good and bad I guess. hmm tough choice im leaning toward keeping snaking because of the familiarity.

:/

A hybrid draft order isn't supposed to be fair -- it's supposed to mildly favour the weaker coaches while still keeping things relatively fair for coaches around the same skill level.

Snaking is (almost) completely fair. Fixed order is unfair in the name of fairness, but may be a little too unfair.

I think a hybrid system is a simple compromise. We just need to decide how many rounds we want to invert.

I think a snaking draft is bad for the league. We need to tilt things a little to help the less experienced/skilled coaches keep up, so they don't keep quitting on us. Parity keeps the league healthy. People are happy to play when they know they have at least a fighting chance every game. I think fixed order is a little too extreme, but I'd rather fixed order than snaking.

When you play a friend on your console, you don't play with equal teams all the time.. you play with teams that will give the weaker player a chance, letting him improve without getting frustrated.

Hybrid draft systems have also been linked to lower blood pressure and higher sperm count.

[addisonbr]

Snaking is (almost) completely fair. Fixed order is unfair in the name of fairness, but may be a little too unfair.

The year: 1981.

The show: The Smurfs

The dialog: "Snaking is almost completely Smurfy! Fixed order is not Smurfy in the name of Smurfiness, but may not be Smurfy enough."

[smozoma]

The year: 1981.

The show: The Smurfs

The dialog: "Snaking is almost completely Smurfy! Fixed order is not Smurfy in the name of Smurfiness, but may not be Smurfy enough."

See, my wisdom is timeless.

[DaDonch44]

How about this for a hybrid:

Round 1 - Non-Snaking (1-25)

Round 2 - Non-Snaking (1-25)

Round 3 - Non-Snaking (1-25)

Round 4 - Non-Snaking (1-25)

Round 5 - Non-Snaking (1-25)

Round 6 - Non-Snaking (1-25)

Round 7 - Snaking (25-1)

Round 8 - Snaking (1-25)

Round 9 - Snaking (25-1)

Round 10- Snaking (1-25)

Round 11- Snaking (25-1)

Round 12- Either (1-25) or (25-1)

- It would be a half Snaking, half Non-Snaking.

- It would give the weaker teams the chances at better starters (first 6 rounds).

- It would make the end of the draft go quicker, as the picks at the end of one round would be the start of the next round.

[IAmFleury'sHipCheck]

- It would be a half Snaking, half Non-Snaking.

- It would give the weaker teams the chances at better starters (first 6 rounds).

- It would make the end of the draft go quicker, as the picks at the end of one round would be the start of the next round.

I do like how we are watching out for one another in terms of fairness to a degree but I have to be completely honest... why are we spending so much time to overly accomodate the weaker players in the league? It looks like the direction we're going is the % of a top ranked player from the season before to get a top pick seems to be minimal and now to have a non-snaking draft for the first rounds of the draft (the most important rounds)???? It just seems like overkill to me. What if a top rated player lands a top pick (even as small as a % as that is). You're going to have a runaway freight train in the league.

Maybe I'm off or not thinking about this correctly but why should some coaches be punished for simply being good players?

[SSiG]

There's no middle ground. Either the bad players are going to be unhappy, or the elite players are going to be unhappy. You can't have fairness when both sides are unwilling to work together, and that's exactly what I'm seeing here. Why not just kick the rookies out and you can turn this into another Gens elite league? At least then you don't have people complaining about good players being punished.

Don't really care about what comes from this post. Eat me alive, I have better things to do than to worry about what people think of me

[DaDonch44]

I do like how we are watching out for one another in terms of fairness to a degree but I have to be completely honest... why are we spending so much time to overly accomodate the weaker players in the league? It looks like the direction we're going is the % of a top ranked player from the season before to get a top pick seems to be minimal and now to have a non-snaking draft for the first rounds of the draft (the most important rounds)???? It just seems like overkill to me. What if a top rated player lands a top pick (even as small as a % as that is). You're going to have a runaway freight train in the league.

Maybe I'm off or not thinking about this correctly but why should some coaches be punished for simply being good players?

Here was my original idea for how the draft would work:

(I'm just not sure if I was clear enough before)

The non playoff coaches (8) would be in the Draft Lottery. No other coaches would participate in this step.

There are picks 1-8.

Picks 9-24 would be based on the excel sheet I posted in the other thread.

It is based on how well a coach performed in the regular season and in the playoffs.

http://nhl94.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3879

Any coach that leaves the league, their spot would be removed and everyone below them would move up one.

So there would be the entire draft order in 2 simple steps. The only problem would be where to put new coaches entering the league.

The Draft itself would be non-snaking (or hybrid, whatever). Yes this gives the coaches that finished poorly better players.

That is the point of the draft as well as in the drafts of the NHL, the NFL, and the NBA. I know this is not a professional hockey league and it is just a video game, but wouldn't there be a problem if the Anaheim Ducks or Ottawa Senators got the #1 and #2 pick after just making it to the Stanley Cup Finals the year before?

I'm sorry for stepping on toes, and I did not mean to. I was just trying to come up with a fair based system that would help keep the league competitive. It was just an idea.

This is not my league, and I do not want to overstep my bounds, and in some ways I feel I have. I believe it is Dmitry's decision on how he wants his league run, and therefore I will not push for this to be used.

[IAmFleury'sHipCheck]

I'm sorry for stepping on toes, and I did not mean to. I was just trying to come up with a fair based system that would help keep the league competitive. It was just an idea.

This is not my league, and I do not want to overstep my bounds, and in some ways I feel I have. I believe it is Dmitry's decision on how he wants his league run, and therefore I will not push for this to be used.

Donche, all good points. I was just playing a little devils advocate just to present the other side. The only thing that matters to me is that everyone should have a chance at the top picks (no matter how small for the top rated coaches) and the spread b/w the %s shouldn't be too vast to avoid throwing games for better draft picks season over season. Also, that new coaches be given the lowest % for the top pick.

SSIG, you brought up some good points as well. I have a better appreciation for the outlook of evening things up a bit now.

Sorry if my post came across too strong, I was trying to post it quickly b/c I had a meeting to run to.

[HABS]

I dont think top players should have any chance at the top picks, it should be standard lottery type like DaDonch is saying. NHL does bottom 5 for lottery, it works pretty well. As for snaking, the first round picks are def the biggest picks of the draft so snaking would still give weaker teams best players. I still havnt voted though.

[smozoma]

How about this for a hybrid:

Round 1-6 - Non-Snaking (1-25)

Round 7 - Snaking (25-1)

Round 8 - Snaking (1-25)

Round 9 - Snaking (25-1)

Round 10- Snaking (1-25)

Round 11- Snaking (25-1)

Round 12- Either (1-25) or (25-1)

- It would be a half Snaking, half Non-Snaking.

- It would give the weaker teams the chances at better starters (first 6 rounds).

- It would make the end of the draft go quicker, as the picks at the end of one round would be the start of the next round.

The thing is, the later rounds don't matter because we don't use line changes, so this is essentially a non-snaking draft order.

I think it's better to non-snake only a few rounds. This changes the "average draft position" for the coaches less drastically. I would definitely snake the first two rounds, otherwise the 24th pick guy is getting really screwed. Everyone's top two players will be roughly equal (when combined), but the supporting cast will be stronger for the coaches with earlier draft positions.

As for new coaches, we can play them a few times and gauge their skill level, then give them a draft pick according to that (though they could always tank those games.. but then they get hammered the next season when they finish better than they deserve).

Also, are we having 25 teams next season? I liked 24 -- all the divisions and conferences had the same number of teams.

[DaDonch44]

25 was just an arbitrary number.

[skoolyardpuck]

I'm gonna go for snaking, just because it's up to the coach to be smart about who they choose when their pick comes up. I know non-snake will shake things up, but I just don't see it as completely fair due to the ability of a coach to get the help of a veteran and pick a completely amazing team with the first overall pick. I think that allowing players from weakest to strongest, according to the previous season, to choose their own draft spot in a Serpentine draft is appropriate enough. That way it doesn't seem like you're shooting the best players in the knee cap to slow them down just so players who aren't as good can catch up. This is why practice is encouraged. So coaches don't sit around waiting to be thrown the best players in the game the following season because they don't think they're good enough.

[IAmFleury'sHipCheck]

That way it doesn't seem like you're shooting the best players in the knee cap to slow them down just so players who aren't as good can catch up. This is why practice is encouraged. So coaches don't sit around waiting to be thrown the best players in the game the following season because they don't think they're good enough.

Well said. This is the more eloquent way of what I was trying to point out.

[Carse]

I think it's better to non-snake only a few rounds. This changes the "average draft position" for the coaches less drastically. I would definitely snake the first two rounds, otherwise the 24th pick guy is getting really screwed. Everyone's top two players will be roughly equal (when combined), but the supporting cast will be stronger for the coaches with earlier draft positions.

that is a perfect idea.. let the people who suck have the first 8 picks from the lottery or whatever then place everyone else w donch's system. snake the first 2 so everyones "Stars" are about equal. after that the lesser players will have a chance to have a stronger and deeper team overall while the vets can still have 2 people with good skills

[dmac]

I don't see why there should be a big debate over how the draft should go.

I think we should just keep it the same as last time. Pretty much all teams ended up equal in skilled players.

Snaking is the way to go.

[Depch]

It was a nice surprise to see that this topic was brought out earlier. .. ages ago. Maybe it might be nice to have a conversation based on more recent experiences and time to update 7 years here has there been any change in the common opinion.

I would prefer a non snake draft. Yes, this will make it tougher for the coaches at the end of the list. Coaches at the end of the list usually are the better players if we wouldn't put newcomers to the end of the draft and by newcomers I mean new players, not established veterans who make a return for the league/game. I do think the best coaches should be able to beat the crap out of others with weaker teams too. Voting for non snake draft as a vet player would be the unselfish move to make.

If people prefer the snake draft, it might be better if you were able to choose where you wanna pick. Like choose your draft position for the first round and everything else settles out fine.

It's worked for 11 seasons so far as it has been so no changes are required to keep it fun. But I think by changing it a bit we could make it more competitive towards the whole community. But I'm fine with the old ways as well.

[kingraph]

I vote snaking.

If we did a non-snaking draft, I would really want to rank the 24 coaches by skill level as this really makes a difference.

One issue is replacements -- teams on a non-snaking draft are more stacked, so a top coach replacing a weaker player with a stacked team will throw a monkey wrench into this system.

At the end of the day, the top coaches will still be favorites, so it won't really matter, but with replacements, etc., it can be a problem.

[Depch]

I vote snaking.

If we did a non-snaking draft, I would really want to rank the 24 coaches by skill level as this really makes a difference.

One issue is replacements -- teams on a non-snaking draft are more stacked, so a top coach replacing a weaker player with a stacked team will throw a monkey wrench into this system.

At the end of the day, the top coaches will still be favorites, so it won't really matter, but with replacements, etc., it can be a problem.

Ranking players by skill instead of previous season and DNP:s would be of no problem to me. DNP:s just would have to be sorted out differently and what the penalty would be.

Replacements are a valid concern. Maybe a vet should not be allowed to have a team from a not so established coach. It's not written on the stone and people are able to overcome such concerns.

Top coaches will be the favourites, but it would make the league more competitive in my mind. Non snake draft would also kinda nullify the need to have any trades involving picks, which would be a positive thing as of late I think the top coaches most of the time get the better of the weaker player.

In the old threads there was some talk about having a mixture of this system. The top 2 rounds matter the most and to me even that would be enough to compensate for the top coaches vs weaker coaches. Like below.

1 non-snake

2 non-snake

3 snake

4 snake

[edit]

I notice that in the thread http://forum.nhl94.com/index.php?/topic/4240-future-of-the-gdl-dmitrys-status-and-gdl-3/?hl=excel it's been said by DaDonch

"Draft

- Hybrid Draft

- First 3 Rounds will be NON-SNAKING, Rounds 4-12 will be SNAKING.

This way the advantage of a good draft pick helps but doesn't dominate the draft."

^ So changing the draft system is not against GDL history either? Need to read some newer threads from that why it was changed back to full snake.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Depch

[Uncle Seth]

I got like a 22nd pick my first GDL, now I want my earlier pick (I think 12th) I feel I've earned. Keep it the same as always is what I say, snake, and based on the same formula as before. I feel very strongly about it too. Been thinking about my 1st pick for a year now.

I do understand the newcomer's viewpoint on it because that was me not too long ago and at that time I didn't like the way the draft was set up with me getting such a late pick. Now I'm on the other side of things, paid my dues and want the earlier pick I deserve. You can call me a baby, a weirdo, an a**hole or whatever, but it's a deal-breaker for me so I'm out if the draft order/process changes.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Uncle Seth

[Depch]

I got like a 22nd pick my first GDL, now I want my earlier pick (I think 12th) I feel I've earned. Keep it the same as always is what I say, snake, and based on the same formula as before. I feel very strongly about it too. Been thinking about my 1st pick for a year now.

I do understand the newcomer's viewpoint on it because that was me not too long ago and at that time I didn't like the way the draft was set up with me getting such a late pick. Now I'm on the other side of things, paid my dues and want the earlier pick I deserve. You can call me a baby, a weirdo, an a**hole or whatever, but it's a deal-breaker for me so I'm out if the draft order/process changes.

I respect the opinion, I do not respect the ultimatum. Like I stated that I'm fine with any way it goes, but this is a thing that should be open up for discussion. I also drafted like ~#22 last season. I'm looking to be around 10-15 this year with not much DNP:s and many newcomers coming in most likely and would get that proper 5 speeder I'm looking for. What I'm bringing up is making my position worse after paying my dues too. Evening out the playing field with a new draft system sure I'd be willing to sacrifice and even pick last every season, but only if there is a change. If not I'll keep my earnings from last season for my draft position (it's a very good argument that you earn it).

Current system is not bad, it's quite ok. I just think people need to be open for ideas and discussions and that's the only way for improvement. If talks don't go anywhere from there and there is no real improvement in peoples mind with any changes, then there is no need for a change.

[IceStorm70]

I'm def open to mom snaking I think as long as we rate coaches appropriately it's a great leveling tool.

[IceStorm70]

Was going to correct my typo but I'm all for the above snaking too

[LA Robbie]

GDL where all skill levels are in together would quite clearly be more competitive & therefore better with a non snaking draft. Blitz with 2 leagues is better with snaking so as to avoid stacking.

Just depends if a top player is happy to have a weaker team & have more of a chance of losing to lesser players in GDL really

[minpind]

I'm def open to mom snaking

snaking is cool. the best part about picking last is the double pick.

[IceStorm70]

Just depends if a top player is happy to have a weaker team & have more of a chance of losing to lesser players in GDL really

Cool with that concept