DaDonch44 Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Ok, this one counts now. This has been the most discussed topic in the league so far, so please put some thought into it before making your decision. Please make a post with your response, again votes from non-league members will not be counted! To make it fair, I will not vote on this unless a tie-breaker is needed. Which type of draft? Snaking Draft - Each round will alternate - Round 1 will be picked from #1 - #24. - Round 2 will be picked from #24 - #1. - Round 3 will be picked from #1 - #24. - Round 4 will be picked from #24 - #1. Back and forth thru the 12 rounds of the draft. Non-Snaking Draft - Each round of the draft will be picked the same way - Round 1 will be picked from #1 - #24 - Round 2 will be picked from #1 - #24 - Round 3 will be picked from #1 - #24 - Round 4 will be picked from #1 - #24 and repeat like that until the 12 rounds of the draft are complete. Hybrid Draft The first 3 rounds will be NON-SNAKING: - Round 1 will be picked from #1 - #24 - Round 2 will be picked from #1 - #24 - Round 3 will be picked from #1 - #24 The rest of the draft will be SNAKING: - Round 4 will be picked from #24 - #1 - Round 5 will be picked from #1 - #24 - Round 6 will be picked from #24 - #1 - Round 7 will be picked from #1 - #24 - Round 8 will be picked from #24 - #1 - Round 9 will be picked from #1 - #24 - Round 10 will be picked from #24 - #1 - Round 11 will be picked from #1 - #24 - Round 12 will be picked from #24 - #1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backhandfloater Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 I voted snake. The reason: 1st pick or Last pick, you're going to get a solid roster. This is a key point that separates this league from the classic league; balanced teams. Non-snaking - Ouch. Those people with the last picks are just flat out screwed. Hybrid - Again, by the end of that 3rd round, its slim pickings to build a solid roster. I can see it now, a team with Roenick and Fedorov vs a team with Yake and Goulet. Bring balance to the draft! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe99 Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 I voted snake. The reason: 1st pick or Last pick, you're going to get a solid roster. This is a key point that separates this league from the classic league; balanced teams.Non-snaking - Ouch. Those people with the last picks are just flat out screwed. Hybrid - Again, by the end of that 3rd round, its slim pickings to build a solid roster. I can see it now, a team with Roenick and Fedorov vs a team with Yake and Goulet. Bring balance to the draft! I echo these thoughts and I feel that the snaking draft has an inherent fairness to it, as well as inherent strategies. Based on where you draft, certain drafting strategies present themselves, and the thought that goes into putting together your team is one of the best and most unique aspects about this league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smozoma Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 I am pretty sure the non-snaking of the first three rounds will get shot down here. People want a couple franchise guys... Full non-snaking will never happen. What about an option for mid-draft non-snaking rounds? 1: #1 to #24 2: #24 to #1 3: #1 to #24 4: #1 to #24 5: #1 to #24 6: #24 to #1 7: #1 to #24 8: #24 to #1 9-12: keep snaking 1: #1 to #24 2: #24 to #1 3: #1 to #24 4: #24 to #1 5: #1 to #24 6: #1 to #24 7: #1 to #24 8: #24 to #1 9: #1 to #24 10-12: keep snaking I think this is a good compromise. There are piles of guys in those middle rounds who aren't going to be anyone's go-to guy, but will still help 'shift' things overall to make a more balanced league, especially the goalies and checking defensemen. Do people just not care about equalizing things a bit? I'm a .500 guy as it is (in the draft league, anyway), so it won't make much difference to my record, but if I were a better or worse player, I know I'd rather win some and lose some than win 80% or lose 80%. I'd rather see closer games and tighter races throughout the league. Ok, this one counts now. This has been the most discussed topic in the league so far, so please put some thought into it before making your decision.Please make a post with your response, again votes from non-league members will not be counted! To make it fair, I will not vote on this unless a tie-breaker is needed. Which type of draft? Snaking Draft - Each round will alternate - Round 1 will be picked from #1 - #24. - Round 2 will be picked from #24 - #1. - Round 3 will be picked from #1 - #24. Back and forth thru the 12 rounds of the draft. Non-Snaking Draft - Each round of the draft will be picked the same way - Round 1 will be picked from #1 - #24 - Round 2 will be picked from #1 - #24 - Round 3 will be picked from #1 - #24 and repeat like that until the 12 rounds of the draft are complete. Hybrid Draft The first 3 rounds will be NON-SNAKING: - Round 1 will be picked from #1 - #24 - Round 2 will be picked from #1 - #24 - Round 3 will be picked from #1 - #24 The rest of the draft will be SNAKING: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe99 Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Do people just not care about equalizing things a bit? I'm a .500 guy as it is (in the draft league, anyway), so it won't make much difference to my record, but if I were a better or worse player, I know I'd rather win some and lose some than win 80% or lose 80%. I'd rather see closer games and tighter races throughout the league. I think people do care but I guess I'm of the opinion that since this is a competitive league, it should be played without handicaps. Part of the beauty of the draft league is that, in theory, the teams are entirely equal. We don't run into situations like on the original rom where there are tons of overpowered teams. I definitely appreciate all of the creative solutions, but I believe DaDonch's lottery system. which distributes the top picks and the ultimate superstars to the non-playoff teams, is really an equalizer in itself without compromising the philosophy of a balanced draft. Another thing to think about is if you take out the snaking, players of relatively equal skill may become disadvantaged by their draft order. For example, take the non-playoff teams and hypothetically say the 8 players at the top of the draft have near equal skills. Whoever happens to land the #1 pick will not only get their choice of the superstars, but they will also get to pick 7 spots ahead of the #8 spot for however many rounds the draft doesn't snake. So his team should be markedly better even though he is of near equal skill to the #8 person. The same thing will happen at the bottom of the draft as well. Picking a few spots ahead of someone in successive rounds is a big advantage and while it might even things out slightly between a highly skilled player and a not-so highly skilled player, it could upset the competitive balance between those players of equal skill -- part of what the draft league and the snaking system intentioned to avoid, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdogg Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 I will take whalers if possible. otherwise any team will be cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmFleury'sHipCheck Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 I'm with BHF on the snake vote... Balance to the draft!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegr8199 Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Balance, if you go by coaches skill, the best way to go is the Hybrid draft. Gives the less skilled players a chance at having a slightly better skilled team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backhandfloater Posted October 16, 2007 Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Balance, if you go by coaches skill, the best way to go is the Hybrid draft. Gives the less skilled players a chance at having a slightly better skilled team I think Scribe says it best... ...I'm of the opinion that since this is a competitive league, it should be played without handicaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angryjay93 Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 Ok, i know i may be pounding my head against a brick wall when i make this argument. But regardless, im going to do my very best to lay out an elegant argument that altleast makes the most opposed parties sit back and wonder about the argument i provided as a viable solution to the league. So strap in since this is gonna be a long ananlytical process...if your not interested, ill warn you right now, dont read it, ill bore you. First off id just like to say i like donch's model of the hybrid best and there are a few main things to analyze when comparing it to the true snake. First off and foremost, the first round of the draft will be just the same as it is in the snake. First few picks will get gods like Roenick, Belfour, Yzerman, Fleury, Bure, etc. and there will be first round gems to be had later in the draft, the 24th pick last season was Brian Bradley, but its a bit skewed since the likes of sakic, fedorov, sandstrom, hull, klima, and roberts were still around for the 2nd round, so it can be said atleast every player will get an established stud like we've had before. The main issue in the debate is the 2nd and 3rd round, first lets start off the with the 2nd round. Looking at things objectively i think it can be fairly said that there is a talent gap in betwen players, and that talent gap i think is big enough to really mean a difference in the 2nd round. First pick last season got Mario Lemieux, but then had to wait 47 picks later or so to get...Steve Larmer...if im a lower teir guy that makes me cringe, Larmer is no push over, but hes nothing special for an average player...hes simply just a guy. For a guy on the higher end of the talent curve, Larmer is a solid to good player, he can shoot, skate, play some defense, and it just takes some decent talent to really squeeze some good numbers out of him, but if your average again, your really lackign the support neccessary for your big stud. Looking at the first part of round 2 last season players like robatille, fedorov, sandstrom, sakic, and hull were picked, prime time sutds right there. You pair Lemieux or Bure with one of those guys are along the same ilk, then thats a legitimate team to have when your in the top end of the draft and it gives those guys an actual 2 man team instead of a one man show. Now a guy with more talent can actually make a pretty good team out of say recchi and larmer, or roberts and turgeon for example, look at the stats guys, a lot of those second teir superstars availble in the top 50 or so can realyl tear it up, especially guys who have been more sucessful. Lastly, were talking 48 picks here, the 48th best player in the game is Jimmy Carson, a 76, once you get into this neighborhood of ratings guys pick who they like or know best, its not so much getting that big star, its getting that guy who compliments your team, especially in the later part of that round. So its not like that later part of the 2nd round is fighting it out for some scrube like Mickael Pivonka or something. Now the third round, its the same as a snake, 1st overall gets 1st pick, thus this round is a lot of the same as well, guys are kinda picking their main support player in this round. Were talking 72 picks at this point, the 72 best player is Robert Reichel, a 73...so again, at this point of the draft were kinda pickign in that neighborhood rating wise while sticking with pieces that fit the team, or a guy were comfortable with, or a steal at that point. So with this format its not like the top teams are getting an early shot at this third teir of players, thus things arent really changed all too much. Then the last 9 rounds are all the same as a snake, something we are all familiar with. So when analyzing this the only round that truly differes substantially is the 2nd, top picks get a better support player that they could use to help diversify their attack and keep them from being one man shows that can easily be focused on by a more talented player with a more balanced star attack. It's one round guys and we are still gonna get sweet teams, i think we are just scared of change in some peoples cases. I'm all for hybrid baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe99 Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 For the sake of civil debate, I hope you don't mind if I reply again AJ. Now the main argument in favor of the hybrid draft is the idea that we need to give the weaker owners better teams and vice versa. I personally believe that since the super studs (Roenick, et al) are so much better than the rest, DaDonch's non-playoff team lottery, which awards the weaker owners the higher first round picks ,does offer some balance, in that, you don't have a super talented owner with a super stud. That said, I'm in favor of allowing the owners in the lottery to choose lower positions in the 1st round of the snake if they want to, because the argument can be made that having two B+ players is better than having an A+ and an B- player (if you follow me). The second thing is that when you break down the skill level of the various owners, let's say there are roughly three classes amongst our 24 teams. The elite 8 (owners who are fighting it out deep into the playoffs), the average 8 (owners who are fighting for playoff spots), and the below-average 8 (owners who are not consistently competitive). The "below-average 8" are going to be grouped in some draft order at the top. Whoever gets the first pick is going to be sitting really pretty when compared to the eighth pick, because he gets to pick 7 spots ahead of that guy in each of the first three rounds. So what would appear to happen is that his team has been made definitively stronger than the eighth guy in the order under the proposed change. You've taken two owners of near equal skill and given one an advantage over the other due to the non-snaking order. So I guess I don't see a perfect solution here because the hybrid still creates a competitive disadvantage for certain owners if they draw the short stick. If we really wanted to shake things up, we could always hold an auction instead of a draft. Give every owner a 100 million cap, and auction off all the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backhandfloater Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 I'm all for hybrid baby. You're just down with the hybrid cuz you know no one will pick your sorry ass Terry Yakes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angryjay93 Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 Your 1st point about allowing people to select wher they are able to selct, then your opening the door to the possiblity of another top tier playing getting an uber stud, if we want to try and eliminate that wholly, then we cant really afford to let people be picking their spots. EA won the championship with the A+ player and some solid B's or possible A's, granted he got the steal of draft day by trading kamensky for ronning, a move if i remember correctly i predicted won EA the championship before the season started. The second point about the 1st pick being substantially better than the 8th is this, its one pick that is being the true difference here, the 2nd round pick, its not like the 8th place guy is gonna be hamstrung with dave andreychuk while the 1st pick gets fedorov or sundin or what have you. were still talking guys rated in the 80s being available, so its not a substantial handicap, its marginal at best. An auction is interesting, but incredibly messy and 14 days might not be enough time to set it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe99 Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 Your 1st point about allowing people to select wher they are able to selct, then your opening the door to the possiblity of another top tier playing getting an uber stud, if we want to try and eliminate that wholly, then we cant really afford to let people be picking their spots. EA won the championship with the A+ player and some solid B's or possible A's, granted he got the steal of draft day by trading kamensky for ronning, a move if i remember correctly i predicted won EA the championship before the season started.The second point about the 1st pick being substantially better than the 8th is this, its one pick that is being the true difference here, the 2nd round pick, its not like the 8th place guy is gonna be hamstrung with dave andreychuk while the 1st pick gets fedorov or sundin or what have you. were still talking guys rated in the 80s being available, so its not a substantial handicap, its marginal at best. An auction is interesting, but incredibly messy and 14 days might not be enough time to set it up. Good points. The thing is the pwners at the top of the draft would be gaining a selection advantage for three straight rounds, the most important rounds of the draft, even if the difference is only the 2nd round. If you were going to have a hybrid I think starting the snake in the 2nd round would be a better solution. So that it would go 1 -- 24 , 1 -- 24, 24 -- 1 ... instead of 1 -- 24, 1 -- 24, 1 -- 24. I don't know, I think that having the advantage for the three most important rounds is a big advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaDonch44 Posted October 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 Good points. The thing is the pwners at the top of the draft would be gaining a selection advantage for three straight rounds, the most important rounds of the draft, even if the difference is only the 2nd round.If you were going to have a hybrid I think starting the snake in the 2nd round would be a better solution. So that it would go 1 -- 24 , 1 -- 24, 24 -- 1 ... instead of 1 -- 24, 1 -- 24, 1 -- 24. I don't know, I think that having the advantage for the three most important rounds is a big advantage. Could always trim it down to 2 Rounds Non-Snaking instead of 3. Remember the point of having a draft like a hybrid is to give the top picks a drafting advantage. They need the advantage or else they wouldn't be finishing between 5-30 pts behind the rest of the teams in the standings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angryjay93 Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 2 non-snaking rounds could work, that would be an acceptable trim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaDonch44 Posted October 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 2 non-snaking rounds could work, that would be an acceptable trim. Honestly when I was thinking of how many rounds, I originally thought 2, but I guess I pressed my luck choosing 3. But, if people want to take trimming it down to 2 into consideration then we can definitely do that. Remember the vote you cast only counts if you have written it in a post. So that mean at the moment (please correct me if I'm wrong) it is 3-2 for Snaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flames4LifeFLA Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 Haven't voted yet. So would the amount of non-snaking rounds in the hybrid draft be cut down to 2? Am in favor of voting whichever method deemed to bring the most fairness to the league... The non-playoff teams should be drafting ahead of the playoff teams- there should not, however, be such a huge advantage for the non-playoff team selecting first vs. the non-playoff team selecting eight. That gap needs to be closer in allowing all non-playoff teams to somewhat improve, not just one or two of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaDonch44 Posted October 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 Haven't voted yet.So would the amount of non-snaking rounds in the hybrid draft be cut down to 2? Am in favor of voting whichever method deemed to bring the most fairness to the league... The non-playoff teams should be drafting ahead of the playoff teams- there should not, however, be such a huge advantage for the non-playoff team selecting first vs. the non-playoff team selecting eight. That gap needs to be closer in allowing all non-playoff teams to somewhat improve, not just one or two of them. Yeah I just threw that out there late last night... I'm totally cool with altering the amount of rounds if thats what the main problem with it was. If more people would be in favor of 2 rounds instead of 3, then we can do it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmac Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 Keep the GDL Snakesssssssss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceStorm70 Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 I voted Snaking draft. But after reading through the thread I'm of the opinion that 2 rounds of non-snaking would be the way to go. I agree with Ja'mon on that one. the first 2 rounds stay 1-24 and 1-24. Start of the 3rd is 24-1, 1-24 etc etc etc. I think that's a fair compromise. How deep do our rosters go? 2-Goalies, 9-F's and 6 D-men? Geez, did the programmers not like Wamsley or Smith? Later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceStorm70 Posted October 18, 2007 Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 I voted Snaking draft. But after reading through the thread I'm of the opinion that 2 rounds of non-snaking would be the way to go.I agree with Ja'mon on that one. the first 2 rounds stay 1-24 and 1-24. Start of the 3rd is 24-1, 1-24 etc etc etc. I think that's a fair compromise. How deep do our rosters go? 2-Goalies, 9-F's and 6 D-men? Geez, did the programmers not like Wamsley or Smith? Later nevermind on roster limits. Found it on another thread, 2-G 6-F and 4-Dmen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaDonch44 Posted October 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2007 adding in dmac and IceStorm70's votes Snaking - 4 Hybrid (2 Rounds Non-Snaking) - 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smozoma Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 I'm not sure why i get so rant-y on some topics I can see why some people want a completely even draft, since we're competing (though I like to think of it as friendly competition where you want both guys to at least be competitive against each other..) Also, the top 10 or so players (roenick, belfour, etc) are so much better than the rest that there is certainly a bit of an advantage to picking in the top 10. It's like a bell curve, where the later players are more clumped together, so 1st and 48th picks are probably a bit better than 24th and 25th. I still prefer a hybrid, though! You could also factor in the fact that the weaker coaches typically don't draft players as well as the better coaches. Lemieux as the first pick? Yzerman lasting to around 10th pick? And heck, I picked Ranford in the second round. First 2 rounds non-snaked is good; 3 was a bit much. Or, snake the first 2, then non-snake the next 3 or 4 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaDonch44 Posted October 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 smozoma ties it up Snaking - (4) - Backhandfloater, Scribe99, EricAnthony76, dmac Hybrid (2 Rounds Non-Snaking) - (4) - thegr8199kings, AngryJay93, IceStorm70, smozoma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaDonch44 Posted October 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 Going by the votes with a post. The vote ended in a tie 4-4. So, in accordance with my original post, my vote would only be used as a tiebreaker. I vote to use a Hybrid Draft with only TWO rounds NON-SNAKING. The rest of the draft (Rounds 3 - 12) will follow the regular snaking format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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