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1 hour ago, Lupz27 said:
The one problem with this post is your using data about a player (Raph) from over a year, and a half ago summer 2015, to think Raph hasn't improved as a player, and knowledge wise since then is foolish, so assuming he will just get rolled over in 4-5 games without CB check in a WBF league now because it happened then is really stretching what you perceive as truth to fit your agenda, and try, and prove your point. Doesn't work that way bud.
No, he gets rolled over in GDL after the improvement. He claims he improved, but he got knocked out in round 2 after. If he improved as a player, why did he lose in round 2 afterwards in 5 games?
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It takes skill, but it's still cheese. You guys can say what you want, but the numbers are right in your face. NOBODY was able to get under 2.94GAA without it, yet with the CB check the worst we see is 2.61GAA.
What is wrong in me saying it's because of the CB check? It's just a night and day observation. It's a good one too because when Raph can't take advantage of the CB check, he tends to lose in 4 straight or 5 games. It just doesn't make any sense, how can he ever lose in 4 straight or in 5 games if he really is that good at defense?
You guys just can't admit the truth, and we all know it.
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We all know I can't be stopped in Blitz.. let's not act like it's close
Plabax is perfect when the cheese is removed and has never even seen a game 7 despite having the most titles ever. Nobody has ever even beat me in consecutive games in the playoffs!
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Even if all that is true, AJ still got the same results in GDL16 using the same blueprint.
I just don't see how the massive difference in play comes down to anything else but the CB check. It's the only thing there is to factor out. Seriously, there is a 0.6 gap between GDL14 Raph and GDL09 Carse. Then with GDL16 AJ and GDL09 Carse it's 0.33.That's huge. That's the equivalent of averaging 9.5 and 8.8 goals a game without a top player.
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Take a look at the "GDL Records" thread, and look at the best GAA. Before the CB check, the top 5 were ALL from season 1 and season 2. Kind of odd, right? The next best is from Carse's GDL09 team. Carse's GDL09 team doesn't even come close to the #5 rated team from GDL 1 and 2. Carse gave up 0.15 more goals a game. However, when you compare Carse's team to the next best teams, you see that they only gave up 0.02 to 0.04 more goals a game. I am pretty sure this includes at least 11 seasons of sample size (GDL 06-16). If not, then it includes at least 8 (GDL 09-16), which is still a lot.
Now take the two mega CB checking teams, Raph's GDL14 team and AJ's GDL16 team (drafted by Raph). They gave up 0.6 and 0.33 less goals a game than Carse. That crushes the old record of 0.15 that only five teams had done before, ALL from season 1 and 2. How does this make sense considering that for the 11 seasons (GDL 06-16) or 8 seasons (GDL 09-16), nobody could come close? Is it a coincidence that the only two ultra CB checking teams with two different coaches gave up 0.33 to 0.60 less goals a game compared to the best otherwise (outside of season 1-2)?
Not only that, but GAA is heavily correlated with manual goalie skill or Roy/Belfour. In the 8 or 11 seasons of sample size outside of GDL 1 and 2, the best seasons belong to Carse (Belfour), Icestorm (strong manual goalie) and Freydey (strong manual goalie). With the CB check included, the top two belong to Raph (Belfour) and AJ (Roy). In Plablegs, Raph doesn't have either but he still has an absurdly low GAA.
The three best defensive teams ever by a long shot are all mega CB checking teams, and they don't need Roy/Belfour or strong manual goalie like all of the other top defensive teams. Even in Blitz, where Raph was the top body checker, he never posted amazing GAA numbers. Also, I don't see how TWO different coaches (the only two to use the strategy) could demolish the defensive records like that 100% of the time. It's not a coincidence.
With the CB check, it doesn't become a game of skill, it becomes a game of who can outcheap the opponent. Raph made 4 of the last 5 Blitz finals and is clearly a great player, so why do his results fluctuate when the CB is involved? Simple. The playstyle in the games he plays (both him and his opponent) relies around gimmicks and cheese. That's why almost none of his GDL series are close, and a good number of his Blitz ones are. In Blitz, you see him go to 7 with Zalex, TK, 6 with me, etc. because it comes down to real skill. But in GDL, it's always a landslide because it's just one party abusing a trick that the other can't counter and it's over in 4 or 5 games.
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I think actual skill in defending is more important than the players when it comes to stopping superstars. Guys who struggle against superstars do so consistently no matter who they have.
For example, Icestorm and I are not going to struggle to stop JR with two random guys such as Sandis Ozolinsh and Jeff Brown on D. And for others such as Freydey and KingRaph, they will likely struggle against a superstar player no matter who they have on defense.
It's not about the superstars being too good, it's about knowing how to stop it. On the other hand, I just don't think there is a way to beat the CB check through true skill and not player abusing. In other words, you can't just "know" how to beat the CB check or be good at beating it.
People know it's a great advantage too. That's why all the popularity for Blitz went away. Once people noticed how strong the CB check was, Blitz was no longer desired, because they felt that it was a "better" version of the weight fix in which they could actually get some good body checking teams.
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I misread your comment. It's the case against the very good players, I agree. Raph is super skilled with it and there is a point that I think has passed where no level of pure-skill offence can defeat it.
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33 minutes ago, The Russian Rocket said:
Also I think Plabax is correct. If you don't have a hard shot or elite skating and you're playing a C/B team you cannot win. Or at least its super f**king hard
Well said. I'm leaning on it being impossible. It's like trying to win with a team full of 25OVR players. It doesn't matter how good you are, you just won't be able to win.
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I don't buy the argument that superstars were unstoppable with A+.
Since I started playing, we've had for top scorers:
GDL 10 - Klima (Carse)
GDL 11 - Klima (FPB)
GDL 12 - Dino (Raph)
GDL 13 - Klima (Raph)
GDL 14 - Mogilny (Icestorm)
GDL 15 - Roenick (FPB)
GDL 16 - Klima (Freydey)We've also seen FPB w/ Mogilny, BoKnowsNHL94 w/ Bure, HABS w/ Roenick, me w/ Roenick, and guess what: NONE of those "unstoppable" superstars did anything with the exception of GDL15, and I wasn't playing.
I took out Carse w/ Klima/Gretzky, FPB w/ Klima, FPB w/ Yzerman, Raph w/Klima, Zalex w/ Roenick, Seth w/ Klima, Ice w/Mogilny, and Freydey w/Klima. All dominant victories on my part.
I find it odd that the ONLY times I have truly struggled are against the CB check when I don't have a certain set of players.
If these superstars are so good and unstoppable, and I can dismantle all of them and win close to 100% of the time, why can't I defeat Raph without speed or heavy players unless the CB check is not in play? I can destroy anybody and anyone until the CB check is thrown in. I don't think it's a coincidence.
Raph is so good with the CB check to the point where it has become impossible to win unless you can somehow avoid being checked down by either countering via. weight, or using a fast player. That's why I kept Russ in my Plabax League. He's the only player that I have that can be effective against him. However, in Blitz you can't get that same kind of advantage, and that's why I believe I have a much easier time dealing with Raph in Blitz, even with a weaker team. Despite this, Raph is still a very good player, and that's why he performs extremely well in Blitz. Raph plays me tough in Blitz, but it's NOWHERE near the level of toughness I face with the CB check. I have won more titles than everyone else COMBINED since my first GDL one, so to me it makes sense that I should be winning and never getting crushed by players who get crushed by subpar ones, which is the case when the CB check is out of the equation.
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I believe that the CB check allows for teams to be built to never lose to certain teams, regardless of skill.
A player like Raph or AJ is skilled enough to the point where they will never lose against teams without certain players, even if their opponent is way better than them. Not everyone can draft a team to beat the CB check.
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Relax. I discovered it by chance, played 4 regular season games to see if it was legit, then I made a thread on it. Mad?
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I was a bigtime CB checker. I stopped because it was cheap. I won more titles than you (and anyone else) while using it.
7PPG is great and all, but I prefer my 7 titles.
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lol. I would crush you with JR, get real.
I mean a team in Blitz that's worse relative to your GDL one. In Blitz, the team doesn't matter, it's the skill of the player. With the CB check, it's the team, not the skill of the player.
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My argument seems to be outrageous, but I truly believe that even if a player were to come along and be 100x better than me, he would be unable to win with a team like your GDL16 team or my GDL14 team against a well-built CB checking team.
It's just like how I would be unable to win GENS-C with a team full of 25OVR players.
However, a coach can use a team that was worse than yours in Blitz, and have no problem winning as long as he is the most skilled coach.
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Even with a great team, you still aren't better than Raph or Seth. You won not because of your skill, but because of the team matchup.
My point is that, the CB check involves playing the team more than playing the player. Skill can be thrown out the window. Even if you were better than Raph or Seth, it wouldn't matter unless you had the right combination of players. You could still make a very good team and lose because the CB check counters it.
On the flip side, you don't have to be better than your opponent if you have the right combination of players.
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Yeah, when Raph was a replacement. You lost to Seth, a player who you took out in 5 the season before.
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It's not to take anything away from Raph or any other skilled CB checker, but what I am trying to say essentially is:
Guys like Raph are too SKILLED for anyone to ever be able to beat them without a counter. Take a note of all the teams that eliminated Raph without the CB check and compare it to the teams that eliminated him with it. You NEED to have a counter to the CB check to beat him when it's enabled. The CB check is not countered by skill, but it's countered by the right combination of players. Even if you were 10x as good as Raph, you still would get your ass handed to you without an extremely good player / team. On the flip side, even if Raph were better than you, you would still have a very good shot at beating him if you could counter the CB check. See: FPB, who had Roenick and beat Raph in 5 games but is not a better player than Raph.
Another example: Angryjay. Clearly an inferior player to myself, but I would lose to him and the CB check 100% of the time if I used a team such as my GDL14 roster.
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KingRaph will likely NEVER lose (in a draft league) to any coach who doesn't have a team that can counter it. You guys can play all you want, but know that your chances are pretty much zero if you don't have the right players.
That's certainly not the case without the CB check. You don't need to counter the B or C check to win. Blitz is much easier for me to win even without a great team, and the reason why is painfully obvious.
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I obviously don't come close to leading any league in body checking (besides maybe GDL16, a team I didn't draft). I don't understand how HABS could look at my rosters and even think so.
Not only that, but we have played so many times and I rarely body check him. This lack of awareness about the game is what results in having no championships. Just completely clueless.
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The pass shot comparison is not the same thing. The pass shot isn't valued high enough to make it scarce. The fact is:
It is IMPOSSIBLE to build a good body checking team without the CB check. The fact that you can now is an advantage. Before it was a pick your poison type of deal with the B check vs. the C check, now it's that the CB check is flat out better. There is no question.
Seriously, what's better: Gord Hynes and Tom Pedersen or Zarley Zalapski and Dave Manson?
Without the CB check, people will tell you the first pairing is. But a guy like myself will say the second one is. With the CB check, everyone will tell you the second, but the CB checkers wouldnt mind playing with the first pair anyway, whereas I would.
It's not as simple as "playing to your strengths". The body checkers love BOTH pairings with CB enabled, but only one without it. I only love one pairing regardless.
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How was I able draft Roenick, LaFontaine, Gilmour and Leetch in Blitz? How was I able to draft Gretzky, Lemieux, Carson, Coffey and Murphy in GDL before the CB check? It's obviously because I don't body check.
I have the same draft strategies now, but it's literally impossible to build the teams of the same quality in GDL whereas I could still make great teams in Blitz was (where there is no CB). How you cannot see the "tradeoff" aspect is crazy.
There is no coincidence that the heavy players started getting drafted earlier once the CB check came along. If the CB check didn't exist, everyone would just be picking all of the buggers.
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No. Quebec will remain at 0 games. Thanks for the offer though
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Plain and simple:
People would always pass up on skill for body checking. Now that the best players are the best body checkers, the CB check gets the best of both worlds while the non body checkers get worse players.
It doesn't matter if you don't think of it like that. That's clearly what it is. The guys who never used to draft heavy players are doing so now.
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When people have to debate whether or not to draft Cam Neely over Steve Yzerman, or Jimmy Carson over Pat LaFontaine in Blitz, you don't see any tradeoff?
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38 minutes ago, kingraph said:
Weight bug sucks
C/B check sucks
B-check sucks
Pass shots suck
Goalie delay sucks
Misleading hot/cold ratings suck
Etc. Easy to make an argument on all of these, it's all how you prefer the game.
If you prefer bad game balance, then sure. But I think the CB check is objectively the worst.
You can prefer living on the streets to a luxury lifestyle, but I wouldn't say it's an easy argument to make.
Pass Shots and CB Checking: The Truth
in Game & Strategy Discussion
Posted · Edited by Premium
I already said I was a bigtime CB checker. I used the CB check to my advantage when I swept you 4-0 too, but I have still given beatdowns and I still won 5 titles without it.
CB check or not, my stats don't fluctuate like Raph's do. Raph would know that I don't CB check ANYMORE if: he actually read the posts in the thread and if he could make it past round 2 to play against me.