Sign in to follow this  
swipes

Parsec - low latency couch COOP online

Recommended Posts

Does it work with emulators?

If I understand how it works, it sounds like the host would have zero latency, while the other guy would have the same latency as normally with p2p kaillera. Just the desynchs wouldn't happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting and raises questions.

The app is free so that's all good. From the looks of it you can host / join directly or you can rent a cloud gaming server where you connect to. A "cloud" gaming server is something that has been discussed here as well at times that it would be nice to have one on the western coast of France for cross Atlantic connections. The guy was using Steam on the cloud server to install Fifa so I can't see why you could not install a Gens / Kega and run a server there where people then connect.

But there is also a false claim on that video. He says that the client sees everything that goes on the host screen and because of that the client only needs to send the data for the keyboard input and it allows for lower latency. It does make for smaller packets to be sent, but that has nothing to do with latency except for the case where your bandwidth is really really poor. In the physical world latency has to do with the distance the information has to travel and not with the packet size in most cases. Ask yourself also this: For the client to see what goes on in the host screen the DATA for that has to come back, not only they keyboard input data unless there is some sort of a magical projection happening? The only ways to make latency better is with a wormhole technology / dreamworld / magic or emulate it with a lag compensation. And of course also hoping that the programs and tech used don't add any of their own.

Now the good part is that he does also say later on in the video that "we have done a really good job on optimizing the latency that allows for a really low input lag" so they have some sort of a lag compensation technology implemented. But does that exist in both direct connect/host and the cloud server? How good is it? Would it be as good as Gens rerecording when both parties use the optimal configurations?

There was a cloud gaming server in Ireland and if you watch the image below for the sub Atlantic cables there might be a direct link there between eastern coast of USA and Ireland. It would not be 100% even anyways for the connection barring how good the lag compensation tech is.

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/international/Screen Shot 2013-07-16 at 11.17.56 AM.png

My conclusion: Client-server is not fun in arcade games over long distance, let's say thousands of miles. For lower distance it's a much smaller problem. That was experienced already in the late 90's and early 00's. The lag comp code would have to be _really_ _really_ good, like revolutionary good.

ps. I'm abstaining from playing until / if community can overcome the problem caused by the foundation of the lag compensation I was experimenting in Plablegs onwards. I know it has been used before and it could cause problems for uneven playing ground. I also plan on not going back on that so better just abstain from playing until / if something is figured out. I have no skills to work on code to modify the emulators features and have written everything I can on the issue. Take care all.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, as usual for the detailed post Depch. To me, this looks like a next-gen screen sharing program that is being marketed to gamers. Instead of two machines loading and emulating the game, one machine is running the game and sharing it's screen, while the other views a remote desktop and sends inputs.

I was thinking about some previous conversations the other day, and did a quick search for a thread that talked about updating the GENS emulator. I never found it.

I did find a few guys on reddit who claim that they can code the GENS emulator.

What kind of things could we do with GENS that might make the online experience better?

Also, do you know why the new kaillera does not have the server list, and only p2p? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/13/2017 at 7:28 PM, jer_33 said:

Thanks, as usual for the detailed post Depch. To me, this looks like a next-gen screen sharing program that is being marketed to gamers. Instead of two machines loading and emulating the game, one machine is running the game and sharing it's screen, while the other views a remote desktop and sends inputs.

I was thinking about some previous conversations the other day, and did a quick search for a thread that talked about updating the GENS emulator. I never found it.

I did find a few guys on reddit who claim that they can code the GENS emulator.

What kind of things could we do with GENS that might make the online experience better?

Also, do you know why the new kaillera does not have the server list, and only p2p? 

 

The online experience should be revamped in a new version of Gens that is a mixture of re-recording & newest Gens.

#1 When players connect in Kaillera have the new Gens show that it's a new version. The version number of Gens has stayed the same for quite a while so you do not know which version the other one is using when they connect to Kaillera, I have tried this and made posts about it. This is a way to prove that the other one is using the same version and we have a way to have a rule to enforce it.
#2 There is something a miss in the network code or how Gens is handling the information. I do not know is it Kaillera or is it Gens. This is evident because I can influence the experience the other one (in honesty both) is having on their screen just by changing my audiovisual settings on Gens. If it is not in the network code then it is somewhere how Gens handling the information with the data flow with Kaillera (perhaps to a degree in unison with the cpu power). This has to be fixed so that there is no varying effect over online play here. While I trust most of the people online here, there are a few where I question the intent to follow a 100% fair play following set rules as it is a competitive scene between some (and I also like to mostly play in a competitive environment I'd rather lose 10-0 frequently than own a recreational environment 100%). The experience is best for both and the feel for input having a light touch to them is best when both use the lowest possible settings but that cannot be enforced so it has to be done via modifying the code to modern standards so that you can have the best settings on and that does not add any input lag.
#3 Implement the lag compensation settings from re-recording or the version prior to that to the Gens version we're currently using. Lock down the lag compensation settings to middle tier so no one can modify them to have a different experience than the opponent so that gives a sufficiently nice experience over online play cross Atlantic already (-1 or -2 frames of compensation). It is probably better to do it this way than the other way around as the rerecording version has a graphical glitch with NHL94 sometimes.

The first problem is that majority of the recreational players and those who do not have a competitive gaming background have no clue what I'm talking about nor are their brains wired to notice the difference of such a tiny delays that can have effects that multiply over high latency environment.

The second problem is that having experienced the benefits of lag compensation you do not want to go back to playing without it over high latency environment. I literally played 2 years of NHL'94 in NA leagues where I had to adapt to not use B-checks and my pass shots were totally off because of the delay. Lag compensation helped me overcome that and raise my level of gaming in the past 2 leagues (Plablegs & Et'Tu Brute) to what I was more used to from the old days, but if few people only know about it using it as an advantage for yourself is questionable. Thing is there is a way for high latency gaming to be enjoyable and very competitive and I plan on not going back after having a taste of it.

I'm sorry but I can only be the messenger in this one, if I could I would help to do this but I do not know how to or do not have the patience to educate myself in how to work the code or program. My frustration on this case and trying to be vocal about to deliver the message and make it understandable lead to the situation that it is better to just not be part of. To explain the level of frustration experienced it it's like a spiritual parasite trying to feed on that frustration and doing everything in it's powers to keep that frustration going on to be able to feed on that energy or that in a holographic universe a group of players that have very little of their own going on would try to humour themselves on such a situation, but there was other stuff going on in my life as well so it all became stacked. I could just enjoy the benefits myself with a couple other understanding the benefits of it, but it's not fun as it's the antithesis to a competitive environment. Meanwhile for the good of my own self to avoid getting frustrated all over again I will just rather stay away from playing NHL'94 and just lurk these boards in case anything pops out that could solve the issue.

Online experience over long distances Gens > Kega. Retroarch? Parsec?

laurapalmerhome-800x599.jpg

Ps. On the original topic the good thing about connecting to a shared cloud computer on Parsec would be that the game itself has the same experience for both, no need to worry about different settings having a different experience. Problem is that the latency to the host computer sending the inputs vary and it is not 100% even like in a P2P environment barring any extra codes creating artificial delay to match the other one. The worse part is that it costs money. Over a 50 game season and 2$/hour, not nice.

Edited by Depch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this