aqualizard

Pass Shots and CB Checking: The Truth

Recommended Posts

The truth is I love them. And I am proficient at neither.

They have not "ruined the game". They are are the game in its highest form.

Among my friends in real life, back in the day, I was one of the better players. (And probably put more time into playing, which is usually related.) Then I started online play, and got my ass kicked. Seriously. I have played online for a year, and am now a mid-level B player. Maybe. I have done zero pass shots in a game, and rarely CB check. Though at least CB is on my radar now!

The A level guys, most of whom do pass shots and CB, are the best players in the world. I am glad that pass shooting and CBing exist, and that they are difficult skills to master. That is what gives this 25 year old game so much depth. Both of these "glitches" may be happy accidents that were not intended by design, but they make the game better, because they require real skill.

I look forward to the day when I can pull both off like the pros.

Note: And I know that neither is required to play well. Lately playing exis with Kingraph I requested he not pass shoot, just to see what happened, and he handed my ass to me all the same. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You said it aqua. God bless nhl 94

It's fun casually, and somehow works marvelously as a competitive game

Playing to win is how A level works. Anybody who whines about pass shots or cb checks is a big fn baby

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And they are nothing new, or well cb was new to me but perhaps someone has been perceptive enough in the 90's already to have figured it out in some community. Fact is that pass shots existed in 94 already and that there is no ultimate right way to play the game and just that players x were not aware of stuff y back in the days does not give them that allowance either to say how the game should be played in a community.

This being said I can understand how some might feel about them. In some of the newer nhl games there existed glitch goals that required very little skill, just a tap and correct position and we had online leagues where some of them were banned, simply because they were so easy to execute that games would turn to spamfests with those goals. This however is not the case with these tricks in nhl'94, there is a skill level in pass shots and unless you have a free ride to goal you can't spam them either constantly, also cb just makes sense to give a fix to an original bug in the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree wholeheartedly with aqua's sentiment. And if we find some new "hack" then so be it. Let the level of play rise with all the options available.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/27/2016 at 10:06 PM, Depch said:

In some of the newer nhl games there existed glitch goals that required very little skill, just a tap and correct position and we had online leagues where some of them were banned, simply because they were so easy to execute...this however is not the case with these tricks in nhl'94, there is a skill level in pass shots ...

That is the amazing thing about these glitches: both pass shots, and CB checks require skill.  Even though they weren't in the game by design, they truly add an extra depth.  If they were easy to do, they would make the game shallow, and I would hate them.

It is one of the miracles of NHL94 (on Genesis) that these accidental gems exist.  I especially love that CB was only discovered 20 years after the game was released. (And I do think CB checks, at the hands of a master,  have more impact than pass shots.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

KingRaph will likely NEVER lose (in a draft league) to any coach who doesn't have a team that can counter it. You guys can play all you want, but know that your chances are pretty much zero if you don't have the right players.

That's certainly not the case without the CB check. You don't need to counter the B or C check to win. Blitz is much easier for me to win even without a great team, and the reason why is painfully obvious. 

Edited by Premium

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not to take anything away from Raph or any other skilled CB checker, but what I am trying to say essentially is:

Guys like Raph are too SKILLED for anyone to ever be able to beat them without a counter. Take a note of all the teams that eliminated Raph without the CB check and compare it to the teams that eliminated him with it. You NEED to have a counter to the CB check to beat him when it's enabled. The CB check is not countered by skill, but it's countered by the right combination of players. Even if you were 10x as good as Raph, you still would get your ass handed to you without an extremely good player / team. On the flip side, even if Raph were better than you, you would still have a very good shot at beating him if you could counter the CB check. See: FPB, who had Roenick and beat Raph in 5 games but is not a better player than Raph.

Another example: Angryjay. Clearly an inferior player to myself, but I would lose to him and the CB check 100% of the time if I used a team such as my GDL14 roster.

Edited by Premium

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we think of the live tournaments that are to me to be the standards for playing online as well. What could be done to CB? You just can't have rules in live tournaments that you cannot do this style and you have to play with gentlemans rules with these. It would look kinda stupid for new faces who might be curious of those in retro tournaments etc. at least for me that is the case. It is an added feature now that always did exist and it does help a lot in defending. It is more effective than any offensive trick as offensive is always more situational, that is given. It has rendered stickhandling less important but also given more depth to the player pools. It is a double edged sword.

You cannot play vs a great CB checker head on and you have to force mistakes, it requires more patience and more baiting, thus propably a great agile skater what Plabax was hinting about. If you also want to draft wise, you don't hand the 5 agility heavy weights to the CB checkers but draft them to yourself. The pool is deep for 4 agility heavy weights in defence, so that's harder to cut people off from especially if they priorize defence early.

I think here we are with CB and it's become part of the Classic game. It has brought some new meta to the game and it has changed some of the drafting as well. Players still have not adapted to it completely and I think this is an adjustion period still going on. Players who have become good with it are ones who can take an advantage to playing the game with it. Just as players who can do pass shots situationally have over those who don't.

We all have our own strenghts that we can be honing on.

AJ is a competitor and can adapt to an opponent with multiple styles

FPB is great using an agile superstar, oldschool abuser

Raph is a CB monster with great pass shots

Seth CB + onetimers + can raise his intensity level when it matters

Plab is great D & best G with deceptive skating for any kind of offensive, also can raise his intensity high

Ice good G and delivers with speed, especially pass shots

Swos studies his opponents and is a very disciplined player with great mental approach especially strong with speed.

You could also mention that Zep is playing a very disciplined patient style outside from the contenders online.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Premium said:

It's not to take anything away from Raph or any other skilled CB checker, but what I am trying to say essentially is:

Guys like Raph and Seth are too SKILLED for anyone to ever be able to beat them without a counter. Take a note of all the teams that eliminated them without the CB check and compare it to the teams that eliminated them with it. You NEED to have a counter to the CB check to beat them when it's enabled. The CB check is not countered by skill, but it's countered by the right combination of players. Even if you were 10x as good as Raph or Seth, you still would get your ass handed to you without an extremely good player / team. On the flip side, even if Raph/Seth were better than you, you would still have a very good shot at beating them if you could counter the CB check. See: FPB, who had Roenick and beat both Raph/Seth in 5 games but is not a better player than Raph or Seth.

Another example: Angryjay. Clearly an inferior player to myself, but I would lose to him and the CB check 100% of the time if I used a team such as my GDL14 roster.

Ya know I beat Raph with Benoit Hogue too right

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, when Raph was a replacement. You lost to Seth, a player who you took out in 5 the season before. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even with a great team, you still aren't better than Raph or Seth. You won not because of your skill, but because of the team matchup. 

My point is that, the CB check involves playing the team more than playing the player. Skill can be thrown out the window. Even if you were better than Raph or Seth, it wouldn't matter unless you had the right combination of players. You could still make a very good team and lose because the CB check counters it.

On the flip side, you don't have to be better than your opponent if you have the right combination of players. 

Edited by Premium

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My argument seems to be outrageous, but I truly believe that even if a player were to come along and be 100x better than me, he would be unable to win with a team like your GDL16 team or my GDL14 team against a well-built CB checking team.

It's just like how I would be unable to win GENS-C with a team full of 25OVR players.

However, a coach can use a team that was worse than yours in Blitz, and have no problem winning as long as he is the most skilled coach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Premium said:

My argument seems to be outrageous, but I truly believe that even if a player were to come along and be 100x better than me, he would be unable to win with a team like your GDL16 team or my GDL14 team against a well-built CB checking team.

It's just like how I would be unable to win GENS-C with a team full of 25OVR players.

However, a coach can use a team that was worse than yours in Blitz, and have no problem winning as long as he is the most skilled coach.

what blitz team lmao

w/e JR >>>> all of you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lol. I would crush you with JR, get real. :)

I mean a team in Blitz that's worse relative to your GDL one. In Blitz, the team doesn't matter, it's the skill of the player. With the CB check, it's the team, not the skill of the player.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was a bigtime CB checker. I stopped because it was cheap. I won more titles than you (and anyone else) while using it.

7PPG is great and all, but I prefer my 7 titles.

Edited by Premium

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And most of that comes from using a game breaking bug before the others.  This year was pretty legit ill give oyu that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Relax. I discovered it by chance, played 4 regular season games to see if it was legit, then I made a thread on it. Mad? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Premium said:

I was a bigtime CB checker. I stopped because it was cheap. I won more titles than you (and anyone else) while using it.

Plabax, what is "cheap" about a CB check?  And is a regular C check also cheap? 

And, do you consider pass shots cheap?

I am not trying to rile you, I really want to know your "hierarchy" of cheapness?  It is especially interesting because you are the guy that discovered CB checks, which adds a weird twist to you now denouncing them.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe that the CB check allows for teams to be built to never lose to certain teams, regardless of skill.

A player like Raph or AJ is skilled enough to the point where they will never lose against teams without certain players, even if their opponent is way better than them. Not everyone can draft a team to beat the CB check. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

CB is a defensive aspect of the game, it exists there most of the time when you can only use pass shot for example only from certain situations. CB allows one to play oldschool classic physics but also wbfixed physics. It was always there but we didn't just know about. Classic has now both worlds existing, where as wbfix does not have light players checking heavier ones. This all is the new default so it is part of the live tournament official cartridges as well. Because of that reason I do not see any reason to astray away from what the official tournaments are going to be. It also makes the game closer to SNES physics if you just learn and use the CB.

I do not think it is cheap, that is subjective. Does it take away some of the skill away from possible offensive plays with the way it eases up defensive plays, well probably. It forces players to adapt to it, I think we are still in an adaptation phase especially regarding drafts to it. Being able to play shifty and avoid the checks by anticipation becomes of importance, agility is more important, stickhandling loses out.

I think that rebounds and 5 hole abuse are cheaper as the goalie can fall for the rebound shot everytime, be it Roy or be it Belfour. Puck control or sticks don't have any play in that. 5 Hole shots were horrible in PC version, you could do them from even center ice and you couldn't play manual goalie, think about that. I only 5 hole passes against a player that also uses them, shout out to especially JV! :P That is a gentlemans rule built to my backbone. Rebound mode is if I can put myself to a win mode and have the will to try to go for the win "ugly".

Edited by Depch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Premium said:

I believe that the CB check allows for teams to be built to never lose to certain teams, regardless of skill.

A player like Raph or AJ is skilled enough to the point where they will never lose against teams without certain players, even if their opponent is way better than them. Not everyone can draft a team to beat the CB check. 

Can you expand on this?

Do you mean, even with a crap team, Raph will have an advantage because he CB checks well?  Or do you mean with a team he drafted for the purpose of CB checking, he will have an advantage because he CB checks well?

And finally, what is to stop other people from learning to CB check well and therefore compete on an even playing field?  I really don't get it?

Also, from my post above, is a regular C check cheap, and are pass shots also cheap, in your book?

(Note: Again, I am not trying to argue.  I really want to understand what you mean.)

Edited by aqualizard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, aqualizard said:

(Note: Again, I am not trying to argue.  I really want to understand what you mean.)

I think what Plabax is trying to say that CB is a move that allows "less skilled" players to win with more efficiency what it used to be. That a team matchup becomes more important, taking away from what he perceives as true sense of skill (at least deke/skating from what I can understand). I think team matchup was not nonexistant before either and superstars were unstoppable if they fell to A+. I also think there is skill to CB in vision and anticipation, less in timing but it exists. I am just thinking that weight received a boost as an attribute.

I think of it just the way that defensive aspect of the game took an upgrade and it was always there, we didn't know about it. When heavyweights were defensive liabilities before and their skill would get overlooked, this is no more the case. Perhaps some only look for the CB ability, but I look at the complete package with weight properly adjusted now.

From NHL2006 if I recall right there was a goal that you could do from the blueline boards with close to 50% efficiency. That is the kind of cheese we used to disallow in leagues, there are more examples of such silly goals that were "banned" that fooled the goalie always and you could not defend it as you could do it from very far. I do not see CB existing on such a level, quite far from it.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Depch said:


From NHL2006 if I recall right there was a goal that you could do from the blueline boards with close to 50% efficiency. That is the kind of cheese we used to disallow in leagues, there are more examples of such silly goals that were "banned" that fooled the goalie always and you could not defend it as you could do it from very far. I do not see CB existing on such a level, quite far from it.
 

I have a younger brother who was average at best for '94, but mastered the hockey games in the 2000's.  He'd get stoned, and just figure out where to wiggle.  He became quite adept at skating around until he found a cheese goal.

Even in the modern games we play (AND the ice rinks get bigger & bigger each year it seems in terms of skating room), he still does this similar pattern where he weaves around until he figures out which wiggle/pattern/movement opens up the goal cheese.  You don't even see a one timer attempted.

 

THIS type of play is WAY more along the lines of "cheap" and would not be considered game skill.  Using C/B requires vision, as much technicality as a one timer, and ALSO, only works if you did your math properly for weight variances.

So, while Plabax has more "old school" skill, in particular because he focused on B checking, adding in a new skill he doesn't use does not make it so LESSER skilled players can beat him.

 

Not using a powerful tool/skill makes you less skillful when it is enabled.  JUST LIKE most old school players DO NOT B check, because we ALL played with penalties OFF.  B checking had to be programmed into my head OVER 20 yrs of C checking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In other words, WITH C/B , if guys are beating you its because they are MORE SKILLED than you.

You have regressed by not using a current skill/tool.

 

That's my take.  I understand why you would view it differently though, and EVEN with C/B, I still lose to you, so I'm NOT stating anything like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed, these are things that I view as game evolution. It is very rare to have evolution in the games defensive aspect after years though, it's usually just honing up offensive tricks. As a user of CB I think it makes the game better and allows for a more deeper pool of players to be used positively. I have only positive emotions to go along that, if I felt it was cutting down on my arsenal overall I might be emotionally struggling with it and come up with conclusions against it.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoticons maximum are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Who's Online   0 Members, 0 Anonymous, 13 Guests (See full list)

    There are no registered users currently online