trudatman

Ninety Flow 2013 (updated 7/14/13)

Recommended Posts

floaters and slappers never seem to go in. both require the goalie to be out of position or make a rare mistake. it's the physics and dearth of bugs that really sets the SNES so far above the Genesis version. I can get started about all of this very easily, so I'm trying to hold back a bit, but I want to point out that SNES has instant defense and goalie control buttons, no weight fail, no "I pressed the damned button, when is the system going to recogn- oh, finally" issue that is inherent in the Genesis hardware (and emulators), no duplicate players (Kris King never played for two NHL teams at once)... it's a game that does what you tell it to, rather than whatever it seemingly feels like doing. the Genesis game is frustrating in its lack of control. the SNES has one major problem that the Genesis doesn't: when you substitute players, the fatigue bars don't show the levels of fatigue for the new lines. I'll take that over the the plethora of issues the Genesissies must inexplicably enjoy.

edit: oh, man... this post started a new page. I was responding to the discussion on the last page. here's something about this ROM: I way underrated Krug based on his three games played. a few games later he's a superstar. oops.

expect an update for the next round, especially if Detroit advances and the brackets need rearrangement.

Edited by trudatman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

trudatman, on 22 May 2013 - 16:23, said:

floaters and slappers never seem to go in. both require the goalie to be out of position or make a rare mistake.

I think backhand floaters go in 95% of the time, on any goalie, and that's what Plabax was referring to with his comment about Roy. However, slappers are definitely a low percentage play, so much so that it's never used.

trudatman, on 22 May 2013 - 16:23, said:

that SNES has instant defense and goalie control buttons

Coming from mainly playing Genesis, I'm finding that the auto D buttons are mandatory learning! Switching to D using the normal B button takes MUCH longer in SNES than Genesis, to the point where it's too late most of the time. The defense buttons a must have. For whatever reason, the Genesis AI on D plays better than SNES (this is NOT an attempt to show why GENS is better than SNES! Just an observation.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's realistic how I play. For my style of play, I don't take too many slap shots. I usually do take the floaters from down low. Genesis doesn't let anything in usually. I have to play the 20 minute periods just to get a decent scoring game. SNES I play 5 minutes and get like a 4-2 game. It's more fun in my oppinion. Plus the control of the player runs smoother.

It's easier to score in Genesis than it is to score in SNES against human players for sure... Im averaging 6.7 goals a game in Genesis in comparison to 5 in SNES!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's easier to score in Genesis than it is to score in SNES against human players for sure... Im averaging 6.7 goals a game in Genesis in comparison to 5 in SNES!

well there is my problem. I only play versus the computer. There's been a couple days where i've played a friend, but mostly it's against the computer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think backhand floaters go in 95% of the time....

seriously? that can't be even close to correct. how would I have never noticed this? I've probably scored with seven floaters in twenty years. are you saying that scooping them backhanded will get them to go in? I'd love to see some video evidence of somebody trying only floaters and seeing how many sink. I've seen the flukey rare ones drop, but nothing reliably. am I missing something?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

tested and proven: that thing about backhand floaters is a straight lie or a misunderstanding.

I tried about a hundred floaters from different players, forehand and backhand, with the flip pass button and by shooting high using players that have bad power ratings. none went in. one almost did. most went nowhere near the net. some went in the wrong direction. a few went over the net. a few died at the feet of the netminder. again, none went in. I've seen the videos of the flukey few that some guys achieved, but they must have taken hundreds if not thousands of attempts. floaters are a very low percentage move.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahh.. The scoring where Patrick Roy lets in backhand floaters from far out and it's impossible to score a slap shot goal... The most realistic out there :unhappy:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Beautiful points! :exciting:

Not beautiful points lol those are just 2 videos of really low percentage luck goals. SNES is just a small community of hand holding high five givers. There's less ways to score, so it's less realistic that way, and the fact that the community is so much smaller is a good indicator of how "fun" it is. I kinda want to try SNES classic sometime just to prove it's an easy game, but the boring C checking crapfest that is snes makes me not want to

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

seriously? that can't be even close to correct. how would I have never noticed this? I've probably scored with seven floaters in twenty years. are you saying that scooping them backhanded will get them to go in? I'd love to see some video evidence of somebody trying only floaters and seeing how many sink. I've seen the flukey rare ones drop, but nothing reliably. am I missing something?

Sorry, I think I'm using a different definition of backhand floater. I don't mean lofting the puck from far away to get a fluke goal. I meant deking to the backhand near the goalie will result in a goal 95% of the time...regardless if it's Roy or Hrudey.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not beautiful points lol those are just 2 videos of really low percentage luck goals. SNES is just a small community of hand holding high five givers. There's less ways to score, so it's less realistic that way, and the fact that the community is so much smaller is a good indicator of how "fun" it is. I kinda want to try SNES classic sometime just to prove it's an easy game, but the boring C checking crapfest that is snes makes me not want to

Yee seriously lol I haven't been scored on by one slapshot this whole classic season in SNES...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

....I meant deking to the backhand near the goalie....

oh, "the move." you have "the move" in Genesis, too. it's a slightly lower percentage play for y'all, but how you came to know a shot from two feet from the net as a "floater" I can't comprehend. "the move" doesn't even benefit from being shot high, you just need to deke the goaltender and shoot. hell, you don't even need to shoot! you can just deke and crash the netminder with the puck to the side. backhand, forehand, whatever. "floater?" no.

edit: I just noticed that Corey Sandler describes it -- albeit poorly -- in the quote you have as your favorite way to score.

Edited by trudatman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not beautiful points lol those are just 2 videos of really low percentage luck goals. SNES is just a small community of hand holding high five givers. There's less ways to score, so it's less realistic that way, and the fact that the community is so much smaller is a good indicator of how "fun" it is. I kinda want to try SNES classic sometime just to prove it's an easy game, but the boring C checking crapfest that is snes makes me not want to

Not luck when there's a technique involved. I'd say that doing what I do, I can score with slappers against an Auto Goalie about 10-15% of the time....far from unrealistic when you consider real-life shoothing percentages. GENS slapper scoring on the other-hand you could argue is unrealistic with how many goals can be scored in comparison to real-life.

I've gotta call 'bogus' on less ways to score on SNES. We have nearly all the same stock ways to score as GENS and our passing is more crisp and smooth...meaning that in SNES there's more passing lanes to manipulate and more creativity with one-timers and passing. It's a wash in my opinion...

We may have a smaller community, but the fun is there. We'd love to have you around to try SNES A sometime...I can guarantee you that it is no walk in the park ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Which buttons are:

a) Instant defense Left

B) Instant Defense Right

c) Instant Goaile

Loving the game BTW. Been doing a bit better at figuring out who my guy is, and as long as line changes are off then I can pretty well figure who is who.

Some of your ratings seem a bit off. I cannot figure how these bummy players are rated so high (Zuccarello/ Stepan/ Richards), and the superstars are rated as average (Malkin). Still though, the flow of this game is second to none.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

let me introduce Derek Stepan: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8474613

this is Mats Zuccarello: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8475692

Brad Richards isn't great, but he was a big plus this season.

the overalls are tied heavily to plus/minus weighted by time on ice. Malkin has great skills if you peep his actual stats, but his overall rating is weak because his +/- divided by time on ice doesn't match his "better" teammates. he'll still score at will, but his line is going to get scored on due his lazy positioning. it works. I bet if you simulated a season the stats would work out better than ROMs that have Ovechkin and Malkin at 100. it may not look right when you are flipping through the overall ratings and it definitely won't look right if you focus on the awareness ratings, but the guys seem to actually play like their (regular season) selves.

as for the controls, thanks for reminding me to edit this stuff in to an earlier post:

unless you are a gaming-with-a-keyboard master, you'll want to use a gamepad, or this game will be quite difficult to operate. here are the controls, based on the standard SNES controller:

control.jpg

L = left defenseman control

R = right defenseman control

u, l, r, d = up, left, right, down directional movement

X = goaltender control

Y = dive, stand up, flip toss, hook, hold, vogue

A = stack pads, skate, check, shoot, kill

B = pass, player selection, poke check, steal, trip

s = line change

S = start, menu

I'm glad you are enjoying it. thanks for the comments and questions!

Edited by trudatman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

let me introduce Derek Stepan: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8474613

this is Mats Zuccarello: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8475692

Brad Richards isn't great, but he was a big plus this season.

the overalls are tied heavily to plus/minus weighted by time on ice. Malkin has great skills if you peep his actual stats, but his overall rating is weak because his +/- divided by time on ice doesn't match his "better" teammates. he'll still score at will, but his line is going to get scored on due his lazy positioning. it works. I bet if you simulated a season the stats would work out better than ROMs that have Ovechkin and Malkin at 100. it may not look right when you are flipping through the overall ratings and it definitely won't look right if you focus on the awareness ratings, but the guys seem to actually play like their (regular season) selves.

as for the controls, thanks for reminding me to edit this stuff in to an earlier post:

unless you are a gaming-with-a-keyboard master, you'll want to use a gamepad, or this game will be quite difficult to operate. here are the controls, based on the standard SNES controller:

control.jpg

L = left defenseman control

R = right defenseman control

u, l, r, d = up, left, right, down directional movement

X = goaltender control

Y = dive, stand up, flip toss, hook, hold, vogue

A = stack pads, skate, check, shoot, kill

B = pass, player selection, poke check, steal, trip

s = line change

S = start, menu

I'm glad you are enjoying it. thanks for the comments and questions!

Are you sure about A (shoot)? On my computer, the Shoot/ Check is the right Command button (left Command glitches the game)

Edited by Cosmic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well, you can map them to whichever buttons you'd like. the controls above are for the original SNES controller. I wouldn't ever try to use a keyboard, so I don't know how it would be set up for whichever emulator you are using, but you should be able to choose which buttons you want to do what. in ZSNES the "input" option in the dropdown menus will allow you to set the buttons. it is done similarly in SNES9x, but it has been a while since I had to remap the buttons in that, so I can't currently recall how you set the buttons, but it isn't difficult. good luck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All good; I am using SNES9x with a gamepad. I am thus required to figure out which button goes with what movement, and then map it. Still loving this ROM- the responsiveness of the players is perfect. When I try to play regular NHL94 now, it just feels like the guys are so sluggish. I also love how great the AI are are deking. They are useless on penalty shots, but any space on breakaways or semi breakaways and they will punish you if you don't goalie control.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just tinkering around with older ROMs from this site, and I gotta say, that I love how you did the #s in TruHockey. Not really feeling the nitro enhanced speed skating style, but I think you did this ROM around 2011, so all well and good, as I think you are pretty well dialed in to the physics of skating in NinetyFlow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well... I appreciate the kindnesses, but physics hacks are still on the "to do" list for SNES. any differences in the player abilities are coming from skill ratings. I do think I did a great job of providing a variety of believable AI experiences due to the way I rated everybody. I paid close attention to EVERY skill rating for EVERY player. I tried my best to make the players mimic the real people they are based on. that said, I did not change the way the game processes the data. the AI really does seem to be much more capable of scoring than in the original, though, doesn't it?

as for the Genesis hack, if you play it with the emulator set to the correct region (Europe, I think), the play speed will be regulated to the original game's specifications. playing it in the others (USA and Japan, I believe) give it that turbo boost. I like it with the boost. that was a great game in many ways. it's weird to me how much of a step back '93 was in the player physics aspects. I think there was a reason I left the numbers in that hack. if I remember correctly it was because erasing them in the way I knew how took the numerals out of the game entirely, so when the statistics and the like tried to use those images, the digits were invisible. thus, I left them in. it worked, for sure, but I prefer the cleanliness of all of that stuff being gone. it would be awesome if it were possible to put individual player numbers on the backs of jerseys, but that would probably require scripting the player graphics and other things from the ground up. hacking is hard enough.

back on topic: I was planning on updating the game again for this round of the playoffs, but I'm not sure I'll need to. on one hand, Krug could use a boost to his awarenesses, but, on the other hand, the playoff bracket structure doesn't need to be adjusted because the favorites advanced. I'll probably go through the four remaining rosters and check to see that starters are "in the game," but that probably won't be until the second game or so of this coming round. I may not need to do another update until the finals, depending on what requires work when I peep those rosters.

IF ANYBODY HAS ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT SPECIFIC RATINGS, MISSPELLINGS, JERSEY ISSUES, WHATEVER, NOW IS THE TIME TO COME FORWARD. IF ANYBODY WANTS TO HELP WITH ROSTER EXPANSION OR ANY OF THE OTHER THINGS ON THE WISH LIST IN THE SECOND POST OF THIS THREAD, HOLLER AT YOUR BOY.

Edited by trudatman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that the NYR defenseman ratings are a bit off. In my opinion, McDonough, Girardi, Staal, and Del Zotto are a huge step above Stralman and Eminger. However, Stralman is a beast in this game. I scored 4 goals with him in one game on my road to the cup, when the entire rest fo the team was getting shut down. In watching, Stralman seems slow, poor with the puck, and his awareness is not stellar. By contract, the 4 guys that I listed always seem quick to and on the puck (not so much Girardi, he is just pure positional defense and lets McDonough do all the puck carrying), and in the right place.

As I mentioned before, I think that some of the NYR forwards are a bit inflated (Richards and Zuccarello), while on in particular may be underrated (Brassard). Brassard may have just had a fluky run since joining NYR, but he has been the most productive NYR since he came on board.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if you look at their speed, agility, control, shot power and passing ratings in the edit lines section, do any of them seem off from what they should be? the choices are something like 20-34, 35-44, 45-54, 55-64, 65-79, 80-89, 90-100. I'm pretty happy with the way the Rangers came out. I'm pretty familiar with them and I feel like I got them done quite well. the guys that you think are overrated are guys that were huge pluses for the team in the regular seaon. I'm much more concerned with stuff like "you have player A as a 55 speed, but he's much faster than player B who you have as an 85," or "why do you have player B with 55 puck control when he's a stick handling superstar?" I'm even more concerned with player names, numbers, weights and handednesses being correct. if anybody can find an actual error, I will reward disclosures made to me of such flaws in this game. ignore awarenesses, for the most part. if I have a guy rated better at offense than defense and it should be the opposite, I'd like to know, but those are mostly to make lazy but skilled guys play as such and unskilled but effective guys balance out. I hope that all made sense. anyway, comments are very much welcomed.

Edited by trudatman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do protecting and attacking have any influence on "Speed when carrying the puck"? For instance, Malkin seems really slow and lethargic when he is carrying the puck, despite high Speed/Agility ratings. I am wondering if his low Attack/ Protect ratings slow him down when he is puck carrying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

no. SNES '94 ratings (speed, for sure) have a weird and unpredictable boost/reduction factor that I just can't explain. I could rate a guy 25 speed and in certain games he'll be flying around like an 85 (my old "scrubs" ROM was where I did most of my testing of this stuff). I've done lots of experimenting and investigating and I just can't come close to explaining it. the best I can do is set the ratings as I think they should be. awarenesses just control their drive to each net.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.

what?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was just going to reply to those saying that SNES is easy, but then I realized I didn't want to get into the whole GENS vs. SNES thing, so I deleted my comments!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

are you making an update for the finals at all?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was just going to reply to those saying that SNES is easy, but then I realized I didn't want to get into the whole GENS vs. SNES thing, so I deleted my comments!

lame! by the way, SNES is easy.

are you making an update for the finals at all?

probably. if Chicago advances, I'll need to flip the East and West to the left and right sides of the playoff brackets. Krug could still use increased awarenesses to get his overall rating up to where it seems like it should be. I still intend to go through the final four rosters and make sure everybody possible is "in the game." I'd love to get some help with expansion if anybody is willing and able to assist. I'm still seeking comments, corrections for individual weights, handednesses, jersey numbers, name spellings, speed ratings and shot power ratings. there will be at least one update before I have a cartridge made. here's hoping I get an update done this weekend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lame! by the way, SNES is easy.

probably. if Chicago advances, I'll need to flip the East and West to the left and right sides of the playoff brackets. Krug could still use increased awarenesses to get his overall rating up to where it seems like it should be. I still intend to go through the final four rosters and make sure everybody possible is "in the game." I'd love to get some help with expansion if anybody is willing and able to assist. I'm still seeking comments, corrections for individual weights, handednesses, jersey numbers, name spellings, speed ratings and shot power ratings. there will be at least one update before I have a cartridge made. here's hoping I get an update done this weekend.

Sweet. You make the BEST snes games i can find!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.