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Royameadow

[MD] Maximum amount of teams probable in a single ROM image?

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Well, this is something that I am probably jumping to talking about a bit too soon, given our current technical limits at this point in time, but this will definitely be something that I will have to be talking about after I release the other installments of MIAA 20I5, so I thought that I would bring this up now for reference later.

Especially since this might take a while to do, given our current norms, I haven't a clue if we will be able to get an answer for this (yet), but I am more than glad to view what you folks have to say on the topic, anything to help us out in the long run.

So, as some of you might happen to know, after I am done with developing and releasing the original installments of MIAA Women's Hockey 20I5, I have stated that I will attempt to bring all of the teams together in a ROM to create what will be known as The Complete Experience, and that will be necessary to create and finalize before even beginning to do work on the Super 032X version, MIAA Women's Hockey 20I5 HD: The Definitive Experience, which will deliver all 086 teams, as well as all of the Bonus Teams that I implement into Volumes 02 to 05, Hardcore and Personal, and The Super 08 at TD Banknorth Garden, in order to deliver an optimal experience with this series of titles.

The big problem with this be the fact that this means that there will be 0I00 or more teams in a single ROM hack, in the event that the final versions of this game are ever created, probably taking up all 6I44 KB of data that a normal Sega Genesis/Megadrive/Super 032X ROM image could probably ever have (not considering the stuff that Watermelon had to have done in order to get the file size of Pier Solar and the Great Architects to 8I92 KB); in the event that I ever get to working on The Complete Experience and The Definitive Experience, I have to assure that I do not have to work on more than one part, or else I will probably have to turn the game into a project with Lock~On Technology to get certain teams up and running, which I would rather not do, as Lock~On Technology is not as easy as some might put it out to be, and I feel that having all of the teams in one ROM image would do better for the lot of players of this title, given that not everybody is a tech savvy gamer out there.

The Thirty Team ROM of NHL '94 and the 064 Team ROM of NHLPA Hockey '93 (SNES/SFC) both make it clear to us that it is probable that we are able to have more than the games' original amount of teams in a ROM hack, but when it comes to making a ROM hack as massive as mine that has a league of 086 teams, not including the Bonus Teams that I am implementing, it requires folks such as myself to do extensive amounts of research and find out how to set the game to its technical limits data wise for teams, before I am able to add in other special features that I have talked about for MIAA Women's Hockey 20I5 HD (including translations, different camera views, new sound effects and music, and even cutscenes and play~by~play commentary, as examples of what I will be implementing for it later on).

What needs to be known here is how many teams are able to be actually put into NHL '94 (Genesis/Megadrive version), while simultaneously having all of the uncompressed artwork from the Thirty Team ROM (while also probably uncompressing the rest of the compressed artwork as well) for editing up an optimal ROM hack for the game; such information on Team Count Expansion happens to be necessary to know for a project of my magnitude, and it will also be helpful to the rest of you as well, in the event that a ROM with extra teams beyond 030 is necessary, also considering the fact that the NHL might expand their team count again at some point and those that want all of them in '94 will require the knowledge to assure that getting them in is completely able to do.

In the event that any of you happen to be also working on a ROM hack of '94 to get as many teams into the game as probable, then do inform myself and the rest of us of your findings and how many teams that you are able to get into a single file.

As stated above, I probably will not require this knowledge for editing the game until after I am done with The Super 08 at TD Banknorth Garden, as every ROM up to now will only require 030 teams at maximum for this year's installments, but in order to give you an optimal version of MIAA 20I5, knowing the maximum amount of teams that we are able to get into a single ROM image will truly assist all of us, when the time comes to create TCE and TDE for you folks (among other sports projects that I have in store; more on that later), anything to assure that I am able to keep to my promises in delivering to you an optimal experience with this game and any future works, as well as expand upon what we have already established for NHL ROM hacking at this time.

And, with that said, I will gladly read what you folks have to say about this topic, anything to help understand this more than I currently do.

I know that I have been posing various questions about the more Intermediate to Advanced Level stuff about NHL ROM hacking on here lately, but hey, it truly has been helping out a decent lot, so I truly am glad that I am able to bring up the more difficult topics such as this one, it assists us in understanding more than we already do about the way that the game works and what liberties we are delivered in modifying it; never could I ever be ungrateful for that at all. (:

Edited by Royameadow

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What's the TL;DR on this?

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What's the TL;DR on this?

lol...the title covers it all. How many teams can you theoretically add to the '94 ROM?

I'm no coding expert by any means, but I believe Sega Genesis could handle 4MB ROMS. '94 was originally 1MB, expanded to 2MB for the uncompressed 30-team ROM version. Assuming you can double the ROM again (and code your ass off), I would think at least 30+ more teams could be added?

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I think wboy made it 32 teams due to video memory constraints. I had the same issue with SNES 93, there is only so much space in video memory for team banners (it loads the entire set of banners at once). I got around this by extreme reuse of tiles. I forget why I stopped at 64 teams, though.

The large part of the 2MB Rom is player pictures, so if you don't add many portraits, the Rom size isn't much of an issue.

I do have wboy's notes on expanding a Rom for more teams, but unfortunately it really doesn't make much sense to me. But I can post it tonight (remind me if I forget)

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try to not forget.

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I'm no coding expert by any means, but I believe Sega Genesis could handle 4MB ROMS.

That is correct, standard Genesis and Megadrive ROM images are capable of going as far as 4096 KB without a Memory Mapper.

In order to play ROM images that able to have as much as 0I0 MB for a file size, there would have to be a Memory Mapper intact, and the Sega CD and Super 032X would apparently crush those memory maps (the Sega CD would take the second 4096 KB Block, while the Super 032X takes the other 2048 KB of the third block of 4096 KB).

Games that were to exceed the 0I0 MB mark are only capable of being played on Gens032 Surreal, preferably Ice Blue's rendition, Version 0I.76 and later, as well as any emulator that was made to play Genesis/Megadrive/Super 032X ROM images that exceed 6I44 KB.

Ultimate Mortal Kombat Trilogy goes as high of a data size as 0I4 MB, for example; it is only capable of being played on such an emulator because the actual hardware does not have the necessary amount of memory to function such a ROM image, even with the Sega CD and Super 032X intact with the Genesis or Megadrive.

Assuming you can double the ROM again (and code your ass off), I would think at least 30+ more teams could be added?

After having looked at Wboy's notes through Smozoma's thread, chances are that I would probably expand upon them to get extra teams in, but this might take a good amount of time to do to assure that everything works properly and does not exceed the 4096 KB limit.

Also to add, when it comes to this. when I start getting down the road to doing work on MIAA Women's Hockey 20I5 HD: The Definitive Experience, any remaining free memory will go towards using the Super 032X's features and the Sega CD's Mode 0I functionality, as all of the rosters will have already been put in, so I could just use the rest of the memory for working on special features and design changes; but again though, enhancing the game beyond Genesis and Megadrive standards will be talked about following finishing up and releasing The Complete Experience; given that Team Count Expansion is the necessary thing to do first for this project, the rest may wait until later; either way though, if any of us are able to put Wboy's notes to good use here and expand the amount of teams to a higher amount in a larger ROM image, then chances are that we will be able to get larger leagues such as the MIAA into a single ROM rather than having to release the league in portions or Volumes, it will be a project worth undergoing indeed. (:

The large part of the 2MB Rom is player pictures, so if you don't add many portraits, the Rom size isn't much of an issue.

This is what I had thought since the beginning, actually.

The uncompressed art literally takes up more than the second half of the ROM image for the Thirty Team ROM; given that this is an Assembly Hack, I could understand why it would take up so much data in the first place, I presume that the file had to be expanded to 2048 KB in order to compensate for such large pieces of information and images in the ROM; if those were never touched and the teams were just simply added, then I would not be surprised if more teams were available by normal means.

Looking at other games on the console that are 2048 KB, both Madden NFL '97 and College Football USA '97 have an expressively ample amount of teams slapped into the ROM.

College Football USA '97 alone has all 0III teams in the Division I~A portion, and I honestly forget how many teams Madden NFL '97 has, but I know that it had the entire NFL from that season plus a good amount of Classic Teams, which I will presume got the team count to somewhere around 040 to 060 at minimum; EA Sports' John Madden Football series and NHL Hockey series are the utmost similar to each other too, when compared to their other works, they share the same menu setup up to '93 and then they had gone their separate ways, looking far more complex from one another beginning with '94, but I truly feel that they were made from the same software and engine that would probably make Team Count Expansion appear to be easier than we might have anticipated; if the Madden and College Football USA series could have so many teams in a 2048 KB ROM image, then I would not be surprised if NHL '94 and its siblings are able to do the same for a ROM of the same size or double, using the Thirty Team ROM, or a Disassembly (if it ever comes), as a basis for it, that seems logical but might require extensive understanding of Wboy's notes to get it exactly in the way that we want it to be.

However, this will be entertaining to work on, I always had loved a good challenge.

Perhaps something major will come from this; I truly feel something positive from these notes, and if we are able to work from this to expand the team list to an expressively high amount, then I am more than glad to view the end results at all times. (:

Edited by Royameadow

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it's a pity no one has converted the rom code over to PC code, as there are no limitations to memory then!

or even do it from scratch .....

i've already said my desire for UNLIMITED data, not letting it go :greedy:

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In order to play ROM images that able to have as much as 0I0 MB for a file size, there would have to be a Memory Mapper intact, and the Sega CD and Super 032X would apparently crush those memory maps (the Sega CD would take the second 4096 KB Block, while the Super 032X takes the other 2048 KB of the third block of 4096 KB).

College Football USA '97 alone has all 0III teams in the Division I~A portion, and I honestly forget how many teams Madden NFL '97 has, but I know that it had the entire NFL from that season plus a good amount of Classic Teams, which I will presume got the team count to somewhere around 040 to 060 at minimum

What's this leading 0, capital i instead of number 1 convention? I don't get it...

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it's his "style." I asked elsewhere and the answer didn't help me to understand any reasoning involved. that may have been more due to my frustration with the other half of that "style," which is superfluously redundantly repetitive longwindedness. I hope this person can help advance ROM hacking around here, but what makes up the cost? my sanity is an inclusion, for sure.

Edited by tru

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What's this leading 0, capital i instead of number 1 convention? I don't get it...

it's his "style." I asked elsewhere and the answer didn't help me to understand any reasoning involved. that may have been more due to my frustration with the other half of that "style," which is superfluously redundantly repetitive longwindedness. I hope this person can help advance ROM hacking around here, but what makes up the cost? my sanity is an inclusion, for sure.

Yep, Tru explained it correctly, that is indeed my typing habit.

However, I have not made a thorough explanation for why this had come to be, so for further clarification on that, I will explain below.

Ever since about March or May of 20I0, something unknown to me had changed my personal mindset on all numbers that are above -I000 but below +I000, resulting in me placing a "0" in front of it when using a number regularly.

The first notable time that this had happened was when I was making a Mockup Boxart for a PC project that I had scrapped in October of that year, respectively known as Streets of Rage 04: Fighting Force Edition, which was originally supposed to be a Live Action Brawler title for Windows XP, and I was planning to do all of the art and menu design for it, but that project had ultimately and completely went to the Backburner in October due to Royameadow: Generation II's visual and technological overhaul behind the scenes that had forced me to work on that instead.

When discussing code, as well as any year that begins with an apostrophe in their title, I will still present the numbers as they were originally presented (example, 000FAE64 for code, and '97 for years), any instance of a number that is from -0999 to +0999 will be presented by me with the "0" in front of it, just so it does not feel to me as if something is missing.

As for using the number "1" as Capital I, this had begun last year; I had grown ample tired of the number "1" having that tail/hook on the top of select fonts that use it, so based on the font that I am using, it will be "1" and in all other fonts that this personal rule does not apply to, then expect it to be a Capital I when discussing a regular number; when discussing code (and phone numbers or Zip Codes, when necessary), however, presenting the number "1" in its original form is done for prevention of confusion, cannot put it any simpler than that.

As I have told my own friends and team, as well as other scenes and groups, I do consider this to be a phobia of sorts, what this phobia would be called though would be well beyond my knowledge, not even I know what triggered it.

I'll probably mention the name of it if I ever learn what it be though; at least 2000 people that I know are aware that I have this, and while some find it interesting or weird, at least it be what makes me unique, in my own regard, I've absolutely no shame in that or being myself. (:

As for your latter statement, Tru, I truly do wish that I am able to help deliver to us an optimal experience for NHL '94, as well as its siblings, there truly be a massive lot of potential in both the games and this scene that has yet to be viewed by us.

Although at this time, we might have certain major limits on what we may do with the ROM in Assembly Hacking, who knows, perhaps everything will pick up rather swiftly, once we know and master everything that this title has to offer in full; I am forever glad to be of assistance however probable truly has been worth my time doing my research and working on projects for here since I had joined in March. (:

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try it blindfolded. or even "blind folded."

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I expect Clockmeadow's NHL ZOIS-ZOIG ROM to get released on BOTH major platforms.

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