Blitz 07 - Trades (unofficial)

[IceStorm70]

Ice(s),

I think the reason that everyone jumped on this trade was that Mogilny is so much better than both Shanahan and Carson it's scary. If I had Mogilny and somebody offered me those two, even without including Francis I would have to say no. If you are going trade Mogilny who is a top 3 player and possibly top forward in the game, any logical person would try to get atleast a top 15 or at a stretch top 30 player back.

This would kind of be like Pittsburgh trading Crosby and Cooke to Chicago for Bolland and Stalberg.

I agree Mogilny is considerably better then Carson and Shanny, however the trade wasn't Mogilny for Carson or Mogilny for Shanny straight up. It was Mogilny and Francis for Carson and Shanny. You cant just look at overall ratings without conidering the production histpry of all the players involved. You also must consider the type of coach playing with these guys. Some guys make better use of a speed merchant like Mogilny, others better use of slower heavier snipers like Shanny AND Carson together.

If Iceguy feels like his team is better with two snipers versus one superstar, then so be it.

This would kind of be like Pittsburgh trading Crosby and Cooke to Chicago for Bolland and Stalberg. So combined scoring history for Crosby/Cooke is equivalent to scoring history of Bolland/Stahlberg?

[hokkeefan]

Ice(s),

I think the reason that everyone jumped on this trade was that Mogilny is so much better than both Shanahan and Carson it's scary. If I had Mogilny and somebody offered me those two, even without including Francis I would have to say no. If you are going trade Mogilny who is a top 3 player and possibly top forward in the game, any logical person would try to get atleast a top 15 or at a stretch top 30 player back.

This would kind of be like Pittsburgh trading Crosby and Cooke to Chicago for Bolland and Stalberg.

good point,I think if ice just get used of his slow team he will have top team in blitz,shanahan is a force and with 88 and carson and stevens

and wtf dc i add you to rom and you take it and run!!! you supposed to exhi after wasting my time

[hokkeefan]

good point,I think if ice just get used of his slow team he will have top team in blitz,shanahan is a force and with 88 and carson and stevens

and wtf dc i add you to rom and you take it and run!!! you supposed to exhi after wasting my time

just like a chicago-ite to pull this stuff lool

[Sicarius]

But i'm good with the veto, won't waste peoples time arguing.

What happened to this?

[dcicon5148]

just like a chicago-ite to pull this stuff lool

i had to go, don't worry, we'll do exhib tonight... it will surely be a preview of A finals :D

[IceStorm70]

What happened to this?

Not arguing the veto. Arguing the point it was a lop sided trade

[Sicarius]

Not arguing the veto. Arguing the point it was a lop sided trade

They're one in the same. If it wasn't a lop sided trade the commish would not have slapped the veto on it.

Start a poll and see how many people would make that trade had they been in Iceguy's shoes.

[IceStorm70]

Buffalo Sends Brendan Shanahan to Edm

Edmonton sends Geoff Courtnall to Buffalo

Icestorm NHL94 12:53 pm

courts for shanny

MinpinD 12:56 pm

yeah that would work

Icestorm NHL94 12:56 pm

cool can u post it and i confirm

Icestorm NHL94 1:01 pm

you want me to pst it?

MinpinD 1:01 pm

haha yee if you got a bit of time....im logging some c league scores at the moment

Icestorm NHL94 1:01 pm

sure i'll use this mdg as confirmation

MinpinD 1:02 pm

yeeee confirmed

[Guest Houli]

Starting Lineup Options:

Francis-Mogilny-Statsny

Carson-Shanahan-Statsny

All depends on what you're looking for, one stud and two pluggers that will add little offensively. Or a more diversified attack with two snipers and one plugger. I agree with Smo's point on killing his protection round next year, however, I don't agree it's a lop sided trade.

The original proposal to iceguy was Shanny and Scott Stevens for Mogily and Weinrich. Would that have been unfair?

with this trade your 1st line is... Mogilny-Lindros-Francis Leetch Stevens

Unfair?

[dcicon5148]

with this trade your 1st line is... Mogilny-Lindros-Francis Leetch Stevens

Unfair?

He must have forgot he has Lindros too, lol

Edited April 4, 2012 by dcicon5148

[IceStorm70]

He must have forgot he has Lindros too, lol

Oh ya forgot about that guy. I'm good

[Carse]

IDK having the #3 and #5 overall picks in a 24 person draft seemed legit to me

[IceStorm70]

IDK having the #3 and #5 overall picks in a 24 person draft seemed legit to me

Why dont you say that to my face

[smozoma]

I guess if Iceguy can justify it on a "I did it for this tactical reason" level then fair enough. Who's to argue if a trade suits the team make up you're trying to get...............but it is a hard one to work out for sure.

I have done a couple of trades that would seem odd to others outside of the deal - Trading Carson for Richter & a pick with Icestorm........but I needed a goalie & wanted an earlier pick to add depth to my roster, so to me it made sense.

Me personally I wouldn't want to push for a veto. Just think someone did something a bit odd.......and some would say stupid here. Are we seriously suggesting Iceguy would intentionally sabotage his Blitz season or what?!

I understand the idea of "this trade works for both teams", but you should still try to get fair value for what you're trading, because what ends up happening is one team suddenly has way more overall value and the other team is simply more balanced.

For me, a bad trade isn't one that hurts one guy's team -- it's one that greatly beefs up another team. Better players also seem to be better traders, too, so you can see why this is undesirable..

I think there are a few flaws w your system in that draft position doesn't accurately tell how valuable a guy is due to the protection rounds skewing people's draft positions. This method would work well in GDL where drafting position is a more accurate gauge.

According to your numbers, trading Chevy for Ron Francis is a decent trade (only 3.4 difference) and I'm pretty sure anyone in the league would disagree with that notion. Also, based on half of trades it thought were bad involving Luc, I gotta feeling that your system must overrate him, or perhaps a large group of guys who fall in that area of the draft where you probably wouldn't protect if r1 is protection, but you would if r2 is protection. It also doesn't adjust for how important different positions are (a starting goalie is obviously more important than 3rd winger). It is fun to play with though.

You have to look also at the relative values, not just the absolute difference. A 3.4 difference between guys rated 20 and 23.4 isn't bad (+17%, roughly like Iafrate/Zalapski or Recchi/Roberts), it's about 28th draft pick vs 36th , but Chevy/Francis is 11.8/8.44= +40% (73rd pick vs 106th). Scale that up and it's 28.0/20.0, 21st pick vs 36th pick, or roughly Ciccarelli/Recchi (which is actually +29%, 24th to 34th).

I'm not saying Chevy/Francis are about equal, I'm saying that next to Robitaille, neither is worth much.

Robitaille's rated a 32nd draft pick, which I think is reasonable. Slightly overrated since he's above Recchi and a few others I would put ahead of him as being more effective players, but not that bad. At worst I might consider him a 40th pick.

I agree the formula doesn't handle goalies well, but the increase in value to Cheveldae from Terreri or Blue is not really that much compared to the increase to Robitaille from Zhamnov. Zhamnov hasn't even been a starter in 3 of 6 seasons.

I traded for Luc for my 3.09 pick because I thought I was a good value and I could trade him later. I shopped him around for a goalie, but there were no buyers. Any goalie I wanted was already gone by my 3rd pick, so when it came down to the 5th, I was willing to let Roby go for Chevy because I wanted a goalie. Would I rather have Robitaille & Casey, or Zhamnov and Cheveldae? I chose the latter, given I had two strong F anyway.

The point is, I can tell a story here, and people can follow. I also didn't think it was as lopsided as smoz's calcs. With the Mogilny trade, it doesn't make sense. Carson, Shanahan, Francis are all close enough, interchangeable based on what someone wants. Mogilny however is in another league and I can't understand what was gained to Iceguy with this trade.

I think Sicarius' use of overall numbers shows the value point clearly. (ANY rating system would have Mogilny rated waaaay higher than the other 3). The other point is there is no explanation for this trade (i.e. swap forwards for defense, size for speed, etc.)

Luc for 3.09 is amazing value. It's like trading up 20 spots -- 57th pick for a player in the mid/late 30s. That's why when hokkee said he wanted to trade Robi, I tried to encourage him to get fair value, but he dumped him for way less value than he could have gotten. He has a great shot, decent speed, and good passing.

Zhamnov has been a big underperformer. No speed, no shot, no checking, just passing, and I don't even know what kind of a real difference a 5 vs 4 passing makes.

Also, if you take Robitaille out of the picture, it comes down to trading 3.09 & 5.12 for 3.13 & 5.04. Doesn't get much closer than that.

That's the value to you, since you got him at a greatly reduced price, then traded him away for a greatly reduced price. I consider the 5ths almost equal, so the trade is basically the same as hokkee's, robitaille for something worth way less, pumping the other guy's team up.

I agree with you on the ratings, but any normal rating system will value Mogilny way higher. But forget the numbers.

Francis has a 4/3 shot, both Carson and Shanahan 4/5. I so can see wanting to trade Francis for a more accurate shot. They all have 4 stick handling, and 4 passing. Shanahan the weakest skater 3/3, Carson the best 4/4, Francis in between 3/4. Francis the better checker out of all of them. There is a close mix here, but if the goal was to get a better shot than Francis...what was the cost?

Mogilny? 4/5 shot (sniper) to begin with, so there is no gain in shot, and the rest of his attributes blow away the other 3 (except weight). So that's what doesn't make sense. That's what I meant by the other 3 are similar -- yes, Carson and Shanahan are better than Francis, mainly because of shot accuracy, but that's about it.

I wouldn't consider Francis close to Carson or Shany. He has no real role. Carson and Shany will score goals with their shots, Francis won't make that much of a defensive difference since he's too slow to use his checking effectively as a forward (speed isn't that important for D because players come to them). Francis has been benched a couple times, too.

Starting Lineup Options:

Francis-Mogilny-Statsny

Carson-Shanahan-Statsny

All depends on what you're looking for, one stud and two pluggers that will add little offensively. Or a more diversified attack with two snipers and one plugger. I agree with Smo's point on killing his protection round next year, however, I don't agree it's a lop sided trade.

The original proposal to iceguy was Shanny and Scott Stevens for Mogily and Weinrich. Would that have been unfair?

With Stevens, it's a bit closer by the Trade Calculator, but still looks pretty bad. Harder to compare because it's a great forward and a generic D for a good forward and one of the best D (but D are not as important as C).

In Blitz robataille is a piece of s**t and isnt worth a 6th rder ,before anyone tries to say different ,try him out for 44 games.

You just don't have the patience to use him, you sabotage yourself.. Robitaille has been a 2pt/game guy and over a goal per game. Find a 6th rounder with that kind of history.. Clark, 1.148pts/gp. Makarov has been on Carse's team forever and he's 1.314 -- 3rd forward usually isn't very important.

One other note, Career Blitz Stats:

Mogilny: 264GP 588G-182A - 770Pts 2.917PPG

Francis: 212GP 117G-109A - 226Pts 1.066PPG

Totals: 476GP 705G-301A - 996Pts 3.983PPG

Shanahan: 259GP 300G-225A - 525Pts 2.027PPG

Carson: 242GP 317G-184A - 501Pts 2.070PPG

Totals: 501GP 617G-409A - 1026Pts 4.097PPG

Yes yes, veryyyyy lopsided trade. I understand peripherial circumstances (A league, B league, supporting cast etc etc). However, the statement that Francis is similar to Shanny or Carson is absolutely false. There are abberations like Kontos.

I don't think this kind of totals comparison is fair because you probably wouldn't trade an NHL 50-40-90 point player and a 10-20-30 for two 25-35-60 players (better than Bolland/Stalberg). Mogilny creates a lot of offense. It's like Stamkos and Downie for Couture and Pavelski.

Anyway, I don't think the Mogilny trade is thaaaat much worse than some other trades on a this-season scale, but the next-season consequences are really out of whack.

[kingraph]

To HFD:

Doug Lidster

To DAL:

Geoff Sanderson

[kingraph]

maverickz161@hotmail.com 10:59 am

Can u post I'm not on my computer

KingRaph 11:02 am

sure

maverickz161@hotmail.com 11:02 am

Ok Ty

KingRaph 11:03 am

Doug Lidster for Geoff Sanderson

Do you want me to use this chat as confirmation?

maverickz161@hotmail.com 11:03 am

Yeah

[hokkeefan]

i

Edited April 5, 2012 by hokkeefan

[hokkeefan]

I understand the idea of "this trade works for both teams", but you should still try to get fair value for what you're trading, because what ends up happening is one team suddenly has way more overall value and the other team is simply more balanced.

For me, a bad trade isn't one that hurts one guy's team -- it's one that greatly beefs up another team. Better players also seem to be better traders, too, so you can see why this is undesirable..

You have to look also at the relative values, not just the absolute difference. A 3.4 difference between guys rated 20 and 23.4 isn't bad (+17%, roughly like Iafrate/Zalapski or Recchi/Roberts), it's about 28th draft pick vs 36th , but Chevy/Francis is 11.8/8.44= +40% (73rd pick vs 106th). Scale that up and it's 28.0/20.0, 21st pick vs 36th pick, or roughly Ciccarelli/Recchi (which is actually +29%, 24th to 34th).

I'm not saying Chevy/Francis are about equal, I'm saying that next to Robitaille, neither is worth much.

Robitaille's rated a 32nd draft pick, which I think is reasonable. Slightly overrated since he's above Recchi and a few others I would put ahead of him as being more effective players, but not that bad. At worst I might consider him a 40th pick.

I agree the formula doesn't handle goalies well, but the increase in value to Cheveldae from Terreri or Blue is not really that much compared to the increase to Robitaille from Zhamnov. Zhamnov hasn't even been a starter in 3 of 6 seasons.

Luc for 3.09 is amazing value. It's like trading up 20 spots -- 57th pick for a player in the mid/late 30s. That's why when hokkee said he wanted to trade Robi, I tried to encourage him to get fair value, but he dumped him for way less value than he could have gotten. He has a great shot, decent speed, and good passing.

Zhamnov has been a big underperformer. No speed, no shot, no checking, just passing, and I don't even know what kind of a real difference a 5 vs 4 passing makes.

That's the value to you, since you got him at a greatly reduced price, then traded him away for a greatly reduced price. I consider the 5ths almost equal, so the trade is basically the same as hokkee's, robitaille for something worth way less, pumping the other guy's team up.

I wouldn't consider Francis close to Carson or Shany. He has no real role. Carson and Shany will score goals with their shots, Francis won't make that much of a defensive difference since he's too slow to use his checking effectively as a forward (speed isn't that important for D because players come to them). Francis has been benched a couple times, too.

With Stevens, it's a bit closer by the Trade Calculator, but still looks pretty bad. Harder to compare because it's a great forward and a generic D for a good forward and one of the best D (but D are not as important as C).

You just don't have the patience to use him, you sabotage yourself.. Robitaille has been a 2pt/game guy and over a goal per game. Find a 6th rounder with that kind of history.. Clark, 1.148pts/gp. Makarov has been on Carse's team forever and he's 1.314 -- 3rd forward usually isn't very important.

I don't think this kind of totals comparison is fair because you probably wouldn't trade an NHL 50-40-90 point player and a 10-20-30 for two 25-35-60 players (better than Bolland/Stalberg). Mogilny creates a lot of offense. It's like Stamkos and Downie for Couture and Pavelski.

Anyway, I don't think the Mogilny trade is thaaaat much worse than some other trades on a this-season scale, but the next-season consequences are really out of whack.

maybe roby a bit of good deal with this new dumb protects all going immediately and 3rd rd is full of bums but id take soderstrom anyday over roby ,anyone can make any bum score 50 goals ,if roby is top pick cause he got 100 points once,then kontos should be top 10 pick ,and dont give me that ohhhh its cause of aj s**t,houly seemed to do fine with him as well,cant believe u think that one of worst deals ,your fn crazy.carse will do ok with him but give carse momesso at center and he will score just as much.

Edited April 5, 2012 by hokkeefan

[LA Robbie]

To Washington from St. Louis:

Eric Weinrich & 12.12

To St. Louis from Washington:

Dana Murzyn & 9.6

[RedWingDevil]

To Washington from St. Louis:

Eric Weinrich & 12.12

To St. Louis from Washington:

Dana Murzyn & 9.6

I confirm the trade

[smozoma]

aye carumba

[chaos]

aye carumba

Iceguy and hokkee should be in their own league with unlimited trades. After 785 trades, somehow they would both end up with players all under 60 overall. Opening face off would be Tony Twist and Chris Simon with Luc on hokkee's bench

[mav]

i think instead of hokkee having a trade limit there should also be a limit for iceguy as well and the evidence is the trade that got vetoed

Edited April 6, 2012 by mav

[hokkeefan]

i dont have a trade limit for myself,its all the same for everyone ,and i only made a couple REAL trades

icestorm is the new freak

[hokkeefan]

Iceguy and hokkee should be in their own league with unlimited trades. After 785 trades, somehow they would both end up with players all under 60 overall. Opening face off would be Tony Twist and Chris Simon with Luc on hokkee's bench

under 60 overall ,eat me ,think my team better rated than yours haha

[smozoma]

maybe roby a bit of good deal with this new dumb protects all going immediately and 3rd rd is full of bums but id take soderstrom anyday over roby ,anyone can make any bum score 50 goals ,if roby is top pick cause he got 100 points once,then kontos should be top 10 pick ,and dont give me that ohhhh its cause of aj s**t,houly seemed to do fine with him as well,cant believe u think that one of worst deals ,your fn crazy.carse will do ok with him but give carse momesso at center and he will score just as much.

Notice that when Houli stopped playing Kontos at centre, he scored 190 points with Bure .

Robitaille is just your scapegoat for when you start losing.

http://blitz94.com/team.asp?orderby=PlusMinus&season=6&team=VAN&playoffs=false

Robitaille, +12

Momesso -3

King -6

Modano -11

http://blitz94.com/player.asp?player=243

Regular season record when Robitaille plays more than 7:30 in a game: 13-4-1 (7-1-0 if he plays 14:10 or more, 6-3-1 if 7:30-14:40)

Regular season record when Robitaille plays less than 7:30 in a game: 6-14-2 (1-11-2 if he plays 3:00-7:30, 5-3-0 if under 3:00 (winning record there, oddly))

Playoff record when Robitaille plays more than 10 minutes: 3-2

Playoff record when Robitaille plays less than 10 minutes: 0-2

pts/15 minutes rate in 7:30 or more games: 2.25pts/full game

pts/15 minutes rate in less than 7:30 games: 2.39pts/full game

That's a 100 point pace, if you'd let him play, and for a winger!

Goals per game for/against with players by ice time:

Player		Ice Time	Games	GFA	GAA	Dif
Robitaille	7:30-15:00	18	4.28	3.17	+1.11
Robitaille	0:01- 7:29	22	3.23	4.28	-1.05
King		7:30-15:00	28	3.36	3.93	-0.57
King		0:01- 7:29	7	4.43	3.43	+1.00

looks like you start losing, throw king on, then lose even worse because king is terrible

[hokkeefan]

I rebuilt my whole team cause i did epically f**k it up last season ,did exactly what i wanted to this season,team will be even better next season.

[IceStorm70]

i dont have a trade limit for myself,its all the same for everyone ,and i only made a couple REAL trades

icestorm is the new freak

Haha i'm not trade maxed like u were 4 days ago. Plus my trades have purpose and meaning, not just some stupid 5th winger for a 4th dman

[LA Robbie]

To Washington from St. Louis:

Eric Weinrich & 12.12

To St. Louis from Washington:

Dana Murzyn & 9.6

Am I allowed to veto this trade? lol

[hokkeefan]

Haha i'm not trade maxed like u were 4 days ago. Plus my trades have purpose and meaning, not just some stupid 5th winger for a 4th dman

you are the NEWWWWWW all time trading champ

Edited April 6, 2012 by hokkeefan