Sicarius Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 I'll throw it out there and start the veto gravy train for this ice on ice crime posted above lol Seriously I'll hitch a ride on the veto train. That's a lopsided trade if you only look at the overall numbers. Shanahan = 76 Carson = 76 for Mogilny = 96* Francis = 75 Seriously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 i know iceguy isn't the most stable thinking guy, but holy crap.... WTGA what is icegay the dialguy thinking?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Knows NHL94 Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 I thought April 1 was Sunday? Mogilny is probably the #2 forward in the game... yeah this has to be vetoed I mean come on.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWingDevil Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 So then, this trade is going down like the Titanic, huh? Yeah, I guess this is gonna suck now. I'm throwing in my negative on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA Robbie Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 I guess if Iceguy can justify it on a "I did it for this tactical reason" level then fair enough. Who's to argue if a trade suits the team make up you're trying to get...............but it is a hard one to work out for sure. I have done a couple of trades that would seem odd to others outside of the deal - Trading Carson for Richter & a pick with Icestorm........but I needed a goalie & wanted an earlier pick to add depth to my roster, so to me it made sense. Me personally I wouldn't want to push for a veto. Just think someone did something a bit odd.......and some would say stupid here. Are we seriously suggesting Iceguy would intentionally sabotage his Blitz season or what?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Houli Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) I thought only hokkee was able to get fucked, but iceguy can be renamed hokkee jr. and icestorm the king of the trades! xD veto! Edited April 4, 2012 by Houli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Houli Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Report a member Report: RedWingDevil * Enter your report Please note: The moderator will be made aware of the link to the page you are reporting. This form is to be used ONLY for reporting objectionable content and is not to be used as a method of communicating with moderators for other reasons. I report this player for stupid trades Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smozoma Posted April 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Wait, carse wants to veto this after trading robitaille (~30 th pick) almost straight up for chevaldae (~70 pick)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smozoma Posted April 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Report a member Report: RedWingDevil * Enter your report Please note: The moderator will be made aware of the link to the page you are reporting. This form is to be used ONLY for reporting objectionable content and is not to be used as a method of communicating with moderators for other reasons. I report this player for stupid trades don't waste the time of other mods who don't need to see this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smozoma Posted April 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Wait, carse wants to veto this after trading robitaille (~30 th pick) almost straight up for chevaldae (~70 pick)? To DAL/Kingraph Tim Cheveldae 5.4 To PHI/Carse Luc Robatille 5.12 To Buffalo: F - Alexander Mogilny F - Ron Francis To St. Louis: F - Jimmy Carson F - Brendan Shanahan What's curious is that Shanahan and Mogilny return to their teams of origin! My Trade Calculator™ (TC), which is a rough estimate of the overall value of players/picks to a team, gives the following: Tim Cheveldae = 11.8 TC value 5.4 = 9.08 TC value Luc Robatille = 22.7 TC value 5.12 = 8.47 TC value Total = 31.17 vs 20.88 (difference of 10.29) ie 5.4/5.12 difference is inconsequential (if going by the players taken, Zhamnov and Blue, it's 10.3 and 8.85) and I encourage carse to give kingraph his 7.3 pick for a later round pick to help make up the difference. Alexander Mogilny = 47.6 (although, towards the top end, the trade calculator starts overrating a bit) Ron Francis = 8.45 Jimmy Carson = 18.3 Brendan Shanahan = 18.1 Total = 56.05 vs 36.4 (difference of 19.65) but you can at least see the idea that it's a great player and a plugger for 2 respectable players -- except it's stupid because next season is a 1st round protect season and iceguy screws himself royally Up until these two, I thought the worst trade was hokkee's Robitaille (22.7) for the 3.09 pick (14.9) Oh and To LA/Dcicon Fleury = 17.8 5.8 = 8.77 (Reichel = 10.4) To PHI/Carse Dino Ciccarelli = 27.9 Igor Kravchuk = 7.62 Yes, the Mogilny trade is the worst, but I had to laugh at where the veto came from ------------------------ Anyway, Mogilny trade is vetoed due to uproar and imbalance in both this and the next season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carse Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carse Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 My Trade Calculatorâ„¢ (TC), which is a rough estimate of the overall value of players/picks to a team, gives the following: I think there are a few flaws w your system in that draft position doesn't accurately tell how valuable a guy is due to the protection rounds skewing people's draft positions. This method would work well in GDL where drafting position is a more accurate gauge. According to your numbers, trading Chevy for Ron Francis is a decent trade (only 3.4 difference) and I'm pretty sure anyone in the league would disagree with that notion. Also, based on half of trades it thought were bad involving Luc, I gotta feeling that your system must overrate him, or perhaps a large group of guys who fall in that area of the draft where you probably wouldn't protect if r1 is protection, but you would if r2 is protection. It also doesn't adjust for how important different positions are (a starting goalie is obviously more important than 3rd winger). It is fun to play with though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceStorm70 Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Haha the sources are always the same, always complaining. But i'm good with the veto, won't waste peoples time arguing. People get hung up on draft positions too much. At the end of the day its about needs fir your team. I have other deals in the works so i'm good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceStorm70 Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Seriously I'll hitch a ride on the veto train. That's a lopsided trade if you only look at the overall numbers. Shanahan = 76 Carson = 76 for Mogilny = 96* Francis = 75 Seriously? Just an fyi, do a little homework before throwing out overall ratings as an arguing point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sicarius Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Just an fyi, do a little homework before throwing out overall ratings as an arguing point. Homework in what regards? Are you saying that I made a mistake with the player's ratings? I just double checked and the ratings are correct. If you're implying I should be up on Smoz's calculated projections then you missed the point of my post. I clearly said, just based on overall ratings the trade is out of balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingraph Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 I traded for Luc for my 3.09 pick because I thought I was a good value and I could trade him later. I shopped him around for a goalie, but there were no buyers. Any goalie I wanted was already gone by my 3rd pick, so when it came down to the 5th, I was willing to let Roby go for Chevy because I wanted a goalie. Would I rather have Robitaille & Casey, or Zhamnov and Cheveldae? I chose the latter, given I had two strong F anyway. The point is, I can tell a story here, and people can follow. I also didn't think it was as lopsided as smoz's calcs. With the Mogilny trade, it doesn't make sense. Carson, Shanahan, Francis are all close enough, interchangeable based on what someone wants. Mogilny however is in another league and I can't understand what was gained to Iceguy with this trade. I think Sicarius' use of overall numbers shows the value point clearly. (ANY rating system would have Mogilny rated waaaay higher than the other 3). The other point is there is no explanation for this trade (i.e. swap forwards for defense, size for speed, etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingraph Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Also, if you take Robitaille out of the picture, it comes down to trading 3.09 & 5.12 for 3.13 & 5.04. Doesn't get much closer than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceStorm70 Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 My point on player ratings is, Klima at 76 is considered easily better then say a Oates or lafontaine at 90+. So using the ratings for comparison is flawed. There are MANY examples of overall ratings not being a true reflection of the value of the player. Francis is NOT in the league of Shanny nor Carson. Maybe weight and agility but he clearly lacks the shot accuracy of Shanny and Carson. If you look at their Blitz Stats you will see that differential. Also, Francis is not known as a 'sniper' always as a plugger. Carson and Shanny are both snipers. Teams have centered there offenses around both Shanny and Carson in the past, NEVER Francis. So calling them similar is very inaccurate. I can use the same theory/story as you King and defend the trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Veto this. Next Iceguy trade: Mogilny for Tony Twist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA Robbie Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 To Washington from St. Louis: Alexander Mogilny To St. Louis from Washington: Dana Murzyn .............what?! He needs D!!!!!! Just kidding lol.............but you really weren't sure were you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingraph Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 My point on player ratings is, Klima at 76 is considered easily better then say a Oates or lafontaine at 90+. So using the ratings for comparison is flawed. There are MANY examples of overall ratings not being a true reflection of the value of the player. Francis is NOT in the league of Shanny nor Carson. Maybe weight and agility but he clearly lacks the shot accuracy of Shanny and Carson. If you look at their Blitz Stats you will see that differential. Also, Francis is not known as a 'sniper' always as a plugger. Carson and Shanny are both snipers. Teams have centered there offenses around both Shanny and Carson in the past, NEVER Francis. So calling them similar is very inaccurate. I can use the same theory/story as you King and defend the trade. I agree with you on the ratings, but any normal rating system will value Mogilny way higher. But forget the numbers. Francis has a 4/3 shot, both Carson and Shanahan 4/5. I so can see wanting to trade Francis for a more accurate shot. They all have 4 stick handling, and 4 passing. Shanahan the weakest skater 3/3, Carson the best 4/4, Francis in between 3/4. Francis the better checker out of all of them. There is a close mix here, but if the goal was to get a better shot than Francis...what was the cost? Mogilny? 4/5 shot (sniper) to begin with, so there is no gain in shot, and the rest of his attributes blow away the other 3 (except weight). So that's what doesn't make sense. That's what I meant by the other 3 are similar -- yes, Carson and Shanahan are better than Francis, mainly because of shot accuracy, but that's about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceStorm70 Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Starting Lineup Options: Francis-Mogilny-Statsny Carson-Shanahan-Statsny All depends on what you're looking for, one stud and two pluggers that will add little offensively. Or a more diversified attack with two snipers and one plugger. I agree with Smo's point on killing his protection round next year, however, I don't agree it's a lop sided trade. The original proposal to iceguy was Shanny and Scott Stevens for Mogily and Weinrich. Would that have been unfair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xdeathsbloodx Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 I'm on the side of the ices here. Does icestorm have the better end of the trade with Mogilny? Probably. But is it lopsided? I don't think so. Yes in OVR Francis and Carson are close but Carson is def the better player. The order of players involved in the trade is 1. Mogilny 2. Shanahan 3. Carson 4. Francis (can prob flip 2 and 3 w/e). But trade has been vetoed by the commish so I guess its all a moot point now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceStorm70 Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 I won't forget this, Mark my words! There will be a steep price to pay for this! You haven't heard the last of me! I'll remember this. All the dissenters, I will be sure Shanny and Carson make you pay! Vengeance is best served by Ice! Anyone interested in Carson or Shanny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xdeathsbloodx Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hokkeefan Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 In Blitz robataille is a piece of s**t and isnt worth a 6th rder ,before anyone tries to say different ,try him out for 44 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hokkeefan Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 I won't forget this, Mark my words! There will be a steep price to pay for this! You haven't heard the last of me! I'll remember this. All the dissenters, I will be sure Shanny and Carson make you pay! Vengeance is best served by Ice! Anyone interested in Carson or Shanny? if u woulda just threw in a s**t pick with mogs it woulda been fine trade but francis is half decent in blitz so it makes it lopsided Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceStorm70 Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 One other note, Career Blitz Stats: Mogilny: 264GP 588G-182A - 770Pts 2.917PPG Francis: 212GP 117G-109A - 226Pts 1.066PPG Totals: 476GP 705G-301A - 996Pts 3.983PPG Shanahan: 259GP 300G-225A - 525Pts 2.027PPG Carson: 242GP 317G-184A - 501Pts 2.070PPG Totals: 501GP 617G-409A - 1026Pts 4.097PPG Yes yes, veryyyyy lopsided trade. I understand peripherial circumstances (A league, B league, supporting cast etc etc). However, the statement that Francis is similar to Shanny or Carson is absolutely false. There are abberations like Kontos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hokkeefan Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 One other note, Career Blitz Stats: Mogilny: 264GP 588G-182A - 770Pts 2.917PPG Francis: 212GP 117G-109A - 226Pts 1.066PPG Totals: 476GP 705G-301A - 996Pts 3.983PPG Shanahan: 259GP 300G-225A - 525Pts 2.027PPG Carson: 242GP 317G-184A - 501Pts 2.070PPG Totals: 501GP 617G-409A - 1026Pts 4.097PPG Yes yes, veryyyyy lopsided trade. I understand peripherial circumstances (A league, B league, supporting cast etc etc). However, the statement that Francis is similar to Shanny or Carson is absolutely false. There are abberations like Kontos. francis is nothing like those to but like i said if he added a 9th rd pick wouldve not looked so bad,i will give you a 9th for carson lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcicon5148 Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Ice(s), I think the reason that everyone jumped on this trade was that Mogilny is so much better than both Shanahan and Carson it's scary. If I had Mogilny and somebody offered me those two, even without including Francis I would have to say no. If you are going trade Mogilny who is a top 3 player and possibly top forward in the game, any logical person would try to get atleast a top 15 or at a stretch top 30 player back. This would kind of be like Pittsburgh trading Crosby and Cooke to Chicago for Bolland and Stalberg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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