Que Vs. Nyi Lag Issues


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Sebe and AngryJay are having a discrepancy with one of their games.

I would like both guys to state their side of the story, and then have other coaches give their feedback on what a proper solution should be.

Using the opinions of the other coaches, I'll give a ruling on what should happen.

** General Info **

- AJ was experiencing major lag problems, but thought it would smooth out.

- Sebe built up a 4-0 lead in the 1st

- The lag didn't smooth out for AJ and he mentioned the problem to Sebe.

- Sebe said that AJ should have acted sooner, and any redos should result in him getting a 4-0 lead.

- AJ would like the game played over starting 0-0, (or even give Sebe a 1-0 lead for the hassle)

These are just the basics from what I have heard, but Sebe and AJ please fill in any holes.

Then other guys, feel free to weigh in and give your opinion.

Thanks.

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I've been on both sides of the equation here. If you are experiencing game-crippling lag you need to speak up at the beginning of the game, not after allowing 4 goals. In a perfect world, I'd say just replay the damn game. But, in a league with stats and very competitive players I doubt I would won't to surrender a 4 goal lead in any game.

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The story actually starts from before the game in question. First game we played on p2p and it was fairly smooth and problem free.

Second game sebe hosted and we played on scd, a cross country server for me and the first 2 periods were decent, considering the circumstances, but the 3rd period went to the crapper as the game was so laggy on myside it became nearly impossible to even pick up a loose puck much less play a game, i ended up giving up 3 goals in the 3rd to lose the game, but since its the 3rd period, i just tried to gut it out to no avail.

So, i had a decision to make of whether or not to play our 3rd game which sebe would be hosting, considering the last week where i asked him several times to play only to find out he was busy, i figured i may as well do it while hes here. so i joined up in the game and we drop the puck.

From the start i had really limited control of my guys and some pretty good lag working on the screen, id push a button, and itd take an usually long amount of time for it to even register onto the game, the 1st goal i recall vividly, im in my own zone,i look to pass the puck up ice, but it doesnt register so instead i pass it right off the goalie who is on my right, he dives, puck lands on sebes stick, easy goal, so its 1 goal, its a rough spot, i thought maybe itll smooth out after that, then boom, 9 seconds later in game time, 2nd goal. so i just accept it as part of the rough patch in the connection and try to play through it still.

1 minute later in game time, a 3rd goal, im a hair away from calling the game right there due to the circumstances im playing under, but i decide to give it one last shot since theres still about 3 minutes left in the 1st.

1 minute later in game time, again, i try to get manual goalie, it takes an eternity to happen, goal in the back of the net, 4-0 with 2 minutes left in the 1st.

I remember i had a conversation with EA a few weeks ago about the same exact thing that happend in our classic league finals. He told me if im playing with such a handicap, to let him know and hed be cool. So at this point im down 4-0, the controls and lag are not getting better, and im playing with a severe handicap, i cant go any further in this game as ive given up 4 goals going through a rough patch thats just as rough as it was from the start. so i drop the game since if i talk on messenger in client mode, i immidiately lag out anyway.

so theres my issues, he gets a 4-0 lead while im severely handicap and in my discussion with him he claims he should start with all 4 goals if we ever do a redo. i try telling him i had lag and no control response and thus he didnt earn 4 goals on even terms. he then said i went out too late, but i was just seeing if it was a rough patch to start, and it turned out not to be 3 minutes into the game which translates to roughly a bit over a minute of real life time.

I believe the game should start over 0-0, i tried to work through it, but nothing worked out and none of the goals were scored on even terms. If i had to, id be willing to start 1-0 because of the hassle and such, but 4-0 is far too much when the goals werent earned on even terms, as far as im concerned its a lag game and we should restart.

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Based on this comment from AJ:

1 minute later in game time, a 3rd goal, im a hair away from calling the game right there due to the circumstances im playing under, but i decide to give it one last shot since theres still about 3 minutes left in the 1st.

I'd say start the game over with Sebe up 3-0 and play from there. The fact you stated you'd play on after 3-0 means starting a lag free game at 0-3 would be a fair compromise. Just my opinion.

Lag sucks and stresses even more the importance of everyone getting up on P2P both home and away. Especially with playoffs starting next week.

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ya after reading that id say to redo it 2-0 or 3-0.. either way its basically a meaningless regular season game for both parties so i have no doubt it will be resolved fairly easily

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ya after reading that id say to redo it 2-0 or 3-0.. either way its basically a meaningless regular season game for both parties so i have no doubt it will be resolved fairly easily

It's not as meaningless as you may think Carse.

Angryjay is going for the presidents trophy, the Art Ross, and the Rocket Richard and to have him lose 4-0 to such bad lag and decrease his chances of winning those trophies, I say just replay the game with sebe up 1-0 or 2-0.

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I am not a coach in this league and have no dog in this fight. As an admin for Classic League and as someone who has spent many hours thinking about how to handle issues of fair competition and many more hours crafting, debating and editing (hopefully) effective rules with Evan, Darrell and others, I hope that my opinion is not unwelcome.

Lag sucks. There is no doubt about that. We're chipping away at it (well, smarter people than me are), but until that day comes that we've effectively eliminated it, we're going to have to figure out what is fair for league play.

When making a decision on how to handle an affected game, one concept I am particularly sensitive to is the idea of asymmetry. Not just the asymmetry of a laggy game (different coaches may experience the lag of a poorly-connected game differently), but, more importantly to me, the asymmetry of how we handle it. When we give coaches the opportunity to, in pickup parlance, "call their own fouls", we have to be extra careful about how we handle that stuff. So that's how I'm approaching this.

It's hard to know ahead of time that lag may be an issue in a given game. In this particular case we are blessed that apparently all parties involved knew that lag might rear its ugly head, because the previous game, played a few minutes prior under the same circumstances (Sebe hosting), degraded in the 3rd period. There is of course no reason that Sebe and AJ wouldn't be on the lookout for lag issues from the start of a subsequent game, and AJ seems to confirm this in his recap, so that's great for deconstruction purposes.

I think we share a sense that if a game is excessively laggy, that state is detectable within the first minute or so of play. Often before the puck is even dropped we can tell that the controls just aren't responding well as we try to set lineups, etc. AJ's experience seems to match that - he reports that lag was an issue from the start. Sometimes during this first minute, one of the coaches struggling with lag will give up a goal before being able to come to a concrete conclusion about the state of things. In my opinion this is forgivable and part of the process. This seems to have happened to AJ. Immediately followed up by another goal, one of those off-the-faceoff 6-9 second specials that seem to happen way more often than they should. I don't generally feel that a 2nd goal should be erased, but I suppose if I were to make an exception, I can see how an argument could be made here.

My problem with this situation is what happens next. By accepting this state of affairs as a rough patch and trying to play through it, we're now setting up a situation where Sebe cannot prevail. If AJ starts to score, presumably that is okay and if he didn't call the game when it was 2-0 he's certainly unlikely to call it when it is 2-1. But if Sebe scores, these goals become further evidence that the entire game should be erased. It's hard for that kind of asymmetry to be fair to Sebe - he can't win. It is almost like in football when defensive offsides sets up a free play for the offense - the best that the defense can hope for is a do-over on the play (i.e., the NHL '94 game getting replayed), while they are at risk for a long TD strike (i.e., the opponent coming back and scoring enough goals to close the gap / tie it up / take the lead).

I am sensitive to the idea that the lag problems may have been disproportionately Sebe's fault, but that's part of why we generally observe a mechanism to erase small leads early in the game. When we decide to let the game proceed past that point, we shouldn't then create a free-roll where the only possible outcomes are a comeback or a do-over. When AJ says that, for example, after the third goal, he's a hair away from calling the game but decides to press forward, what can happen? Either he scores the next goal and closes the gap, or he gives up another goal, and asks for the whole game to be replayed.

Keep in mind - I do NOT think that AJ was manipulating the situation or being unethical in any way. In fact I think the opposite. I think that it felt like the right thing to do and he had nothing but honorable intentions on his mind to try to get this game done. But the unfortunate effect of the situation and decision is that it set up a no-win quandry for Sebe. And given that AJ had the power to call the game in the first minute, with the benefit of at least one possibly two breaks in the action, it's hard for me to accept that this is fair to Sebe.

When each coach has the power to call the game on account of lag at any time, I can't in good conscience believe that it is workable to also let him make that decision in such a way that it puts his opponent at an asymmetrical no-win disadvantage. The owners in this case both knew lag might be an issue before the game started, the lag surfaced right from the start, but the game continued through several goals and breaks in play. If this game was to be erased from existence, the proper time for that was earlier. I would suggest (and what I would rule in Classic League, which I understand has no jurisdiction here) replaying the game with 2 minutes left in the 1st and Sebe up 4-0.

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I'm not a part of this league but I have been on both sides of this issue. There is no "whos right and whos wrong" because it's basically one word against another.

Basically in my humble opinion, the only solution to this type of problem is for leagues to implement a rule that allows a brief time period to back out of a game due to lag or syncing issues. Once a coach has passed that time frame, they are obligated to continue playing or bow out with a FF. I know that might suck for those of you who are statistic-minded, but that may be the only solution.

Also, I agree with Ice about making a strong push for coaches to utilize the P2P option. I almost never have issues with P2P except for the occasional de-sync which is noticable right away.

Good luck on this one....

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As an ex-GDL player and a victim of lag, I will offer this up.

The situation as a whole stinks. I've been in games that I was actually WINNING, and lag ruined it with disconnects. We replayed and I lost as a result. Every game is different, what worked in one game might not work in the other.

I say give Sebe a 2-0 lead and restart halfway through the first period.

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As being the first person to chat with both coaches about this, I have an opinion on what should happen by what both coaches said to me.

aj thinks at most it should be started over with sebe having a 1-0 lead.

sebe said he should have at least a 3-0 lead to start.

Given that both coaches wont buge on that, I think that it should just go with a middle compromise of a 2-0 lead to start for sebe.

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My problem with this situation is what happens next. By accepting this state of affairs as a rough patch and trying to play through it, we're now setting up a situation where Sebe cannot prevail. If AJ starts to score, presumably that is okay and if he didn't call the game when it was 2-0 he's certainly unlikely to call it when it is 2-1. But if Sebe scores, these goals become further evidence that the entire game should be erased. It's hard for that kind of asymmetry to be fair to Sebe - he can't win. It is almost like in football when defensive offsides sets up a free play for the offense - the best that the defense can hope for is a do-over on the play (i.e., the NHL '94 game getting replayed), while they are at risk for a long TD strike (i.e., the opponent coming back and scoring enough goals to close the gap / tie it up / take the lead).

I am sensitive to the idea that the lag problems may have been disproportionately Sebe's fault, but that's part of why we generally observe a mechanism to erase small leads early in the game. When we decide to let the game proceed past that point, we shouldn't then create a free-roll where the only possible outcomes are a comeback or a do-over. When AJ says that, for example, after the third goal, he's a hair away from calling the game but decides to press forward, what can happen? Either he scores the next goal and closes the gap, or he gives up another goal, and asks for the whole game to be replayed.

In all fairness for myself to these comments, I have called really laggy games where i end up tying the game at say 1-1 or score a goal at 2-1 in order to make it more fair to the other player. I even called a game in gdl 2 where i was up 3-0 early on in the 1st period but i said the lag was too much to deal with and i started a game with that manager at a different date at 0-0. So to assume the idea of the free roll is a little much in my opinion.

In a discussion i had with EA a couple weeks ago when this issue arised in our games he stated to me that he wouldn't want anyone facing that sort of handicap in a game played against him, he just wants a good fair match. He even said to me that he and skool played in an entire game in the eastern conference semis with skool all over again due to connection issues. They started that game at 0-0, I think if they can resolve an issue like that in a playoff game, then theres no reason in my mind why sebe should be awarded any more than 1 goal due to the fact that he was playing a team with a severe handicap and i just tried to ride it out for roughly slightly over a minute of real time. I'm really surprised to see everyone in such favor of handing 3 or 4 goals to a team that earned them under an unfair situation. I was just looking to regain control of my players and a decrease in lag, not a free-roll situation of a comeback or calling the game like ive been assumed of doing. Im just trying to create a fair game where unfair advantages are minimized, whats the legitimacy or fun in gaining a lead that wasnt fairly earned? I mean if a guy is having severe issues on his side and i score 4 quick ones and hes moving around in a somewhat questionable manner, it raises my suspicion of whats going on out there. As ive said before, ive called games where even ive been up, so im just looking to play a fair game here.

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My problem with this situation is what happens next. By accepting this state of affairs as a rough patch and trying to play through it, we're now setting up a situation where Sebe cannot prevail. If AJ starts to score, presumably that is okay and if he didn't call the game when it was 2-0 he's certainly unlikely to call it when it is 2-1. But if Sebe scores, these goals become further evidence that the entire game should be erased. It's hard for that kind of asymmetry to be fair to Sebe - he can't win. It is almost like in football when defensive offsides sets up a free play for the offense - the best that the defense can hope for is a do-over on the play (i.e., the NHL '94 game getting replayed), while they are at risk for a long TD strike (i.e., the opponent coming back and scoring enough goals to close the gap / tie it up / take the lead).

I am sensitive to the idea that the lag problems may have been disproportionately Sebe's fault, but that's part of why we generally observe a mechanism to erase small leads early in the game. When we decide to let the game proceed past that point, we shouldn't then create a free-roll where the only possible outcomes are a comeback or a do-over. When AJ says that, for example, after the third goal, he's a hair away from calling the game but decides to press forward, what can happen? Either he scores the next goal and closes the gap, or he gives up another goal, and asks for the whole game to be replayed.

that is so damn true.. when people are bitching about lag it truely feels like a lose/lose situation

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maybe there should be a 1-2 minute pregame tryout put in place that everyone should do so that this stuff doesnt happen.im west coast and ive played through alot of games that were laggy because i didnt speak up right away and i know other guys have did the same with me, so put it in stone and the problem is solved.

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the thing is.. when there is lag, doesnt it lag equally for both people? I mean, didnt sebe score albeit the lag he was experiencing too? In my experience, that is usually the general way lag goes. If it was one way, and sebe wasnt experiencing lag and just dominating AJ, then i say you take his word, he doesnt seem like a player who cries about nothing, or is unfairly trying to get back goals on a game. If someone honestly feels like the game was a farce, then give the guy some consideration. Start 2-0 up in the second period, thats fair to both parties.

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I tend to lean toward sebe's side in this debate-I think AJ should have been more decisive and called it sooner, especially since the previous game degraded in the third. However, I don't think sebe should have logged the game without coming to a concrete resolution. Both players are skilled and confident in their abilities-I say replay the damn thing! :D

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Shouldn't wait until it's 4-0 to call it, even if those goals happen fast..

Just replay from the time the game was cutoff. Maybe sebe could agree to start it 3-0, basically meaning that the last goal was called off due to lag, since the first 3 were 'accepted' by AJ.

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Firstly, I would like to thank everyone for taking the time to comment on the situation. Its a very difficult situation and everyones insight helps to get a feel for both sides of the story.

Lag is something that I have dealt with my whole time on this site, its tough to deal with. I can appricate AJ's situation and I have been there myself as a player many times.

The first game we had that I lost against AJ wasnt exactly the greatest connection. I have been having ongoing issues with p2p connections in general. I have voiced these problems to some other players as well, including Icestorm. Our GDL game was very fast on my end and choppy. I played it out cause i felt ICE was the better player that game. With p2p in general, I notice that the screen moves very quickly and its hard to play properly. Although i had this problem, it may not have been as bad as AJ's situation, i can understand that. I decided that once he scored his first goal, i was going to stick it out. I believe that the decision to abandon a game should be made within the first minute of play (NOT REAL TIME, because everyone knows real time is irrelevent, 10 goals can be scored in one real minute...) or after the first goal is scored whichever is first. Any longer than those 2 options will be too late. I feel if you have legitimate lag issue, allowing one goal or 2 goals at the very most, should be enough to prevoke one to stop the game. Playing most of the first period and allowing 4 goals is much to late to justify lag issues. I hope that AJ can understand that.

I think we share a sense that if a game is excessively laggy, that state is detectable within the first minute or so of play. Often before the puck is even dropped we can tell that the controls just aren't responding well as we try to set lineups, etc. AJ's experience seems to match that - he reports that lag was an issue from the start. Sometimes during this first minute, one of the coaches struggling with lag will give up a goal before being able to come to a concrete conclusion about the state of things.

My problem with this situation is what happens next. By accepting this state of affairs as a rough patch and trying to play through it, we're now setting up a situation where Sebe cannot prevail. If AJ starts to score, presumably that is okay and if he didn't call the game when it was 2-0 he's certainly unlikely to call it when it is 2-1. But if Sebe scores, these goals become further evidence that the entire game should be erased. It's hard for that kind of asymmetry to be fair to Sebe - he can't win

Further more, personally i have to agree with most of what addisonbr has to say, his opinion is unbiased and reflects his vast experience in dealing with conflicts of all kinds including lag issues.

Im not sure how this situation is to be resolved, however I am confident that the decision made will be fair and reasonable.

I regret that this has happened, and my wish is to put it behind me as quickly as possible.

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After reading the comments by different players, who gave great views on the subject, I have come up with a decision.

Resume the game with 2:34 left in the 1st period and Sebe having a 3-0 lead.

As IceStorm points out in AJ's comments, he accepted the first 3 goals and decided to try to continue. So I think reducing the score to 2-0 or 1-0 would be getting unfair to Sebe.

Lag definitely does suck, so to try to prevent situations in the future, speak up as soon as you feel the game may be impossible to play.

There is 2 1/2 periods left in the contest, so it should be competitive to the finish. Good to you both in this and your 4th game.

I will be contacting Dmitry about removing the save state for the post game.

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maybe there should be a 1-2 minute pregame tryout put in place that everyone should do so that this stuff doesnt happen.im west coast and ive played through alot of games that were laggy because i didnt speak up right away and i know other guys have did the same with me, so put it in stone and the problem is solved.

make the pregame tryout a rule so there are no more probs :)

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I've thought about this situation since it was posted. I really haven't chimed in b/c just like most people have posted replies here, it's not a black and white issue. Instead of reiterate what's already been said... I really don't think there is a clear cut answer. What I'm saying is that there will never be a clear cut deadline or rule when it comes to lag issues in games.

It is true what AJ posted about the classic finals situation. And I did tell him that next time, do not let the game go on beyond the point of no return if he experiences lag in the future.

But I think the issue really comes down to how well you know the guy you're playing. Whereas, I would have no problem if AJ said lets start over even if I was up 4-0 after one period due to lag issues. B/c what it really comes down to is I know AJ pretty well. If he says that he wanted to play the lag out but it's not getting any better, I believe him. I know he's trying to do the right thing by playing it out, but I also told him to speak up as soon as possible if there are issues from the outset of the game. However, let me point out that this is a case by case basis. I wouldn't just offer that or expect that from any coach I play. I've played, s**t I don't know how many games against AJ... so if he tells me something is off or I can tell his play isn't up to his level, I'm going to let him make the call. Just as I did with that one game with skool where we played the entire game over. But it comes down to me and my history with that coach.

I would be less apt to extend the same offer to a coach I wasn't exactly familiar with. I hope that doesn't sound bad but it's my experience that a newer coach will be more likely to bring up a lag issue a lot sooner than a veteran. And that's not a bad thing, that's just what I've noticed.

With coaches I have a history with, I can tell when their play isn't exactly clicking so if they tell me after a period of play that the connection isn't working... fine, lets start over. But if I'm playing a guy I don't know that well, I would hope it's mentioned sooner than later.

So, in this case, I don't blame Sebe for not really wanting to back down. He doesn't know AJ all that well. Also, especially after our finals and what AJ told me afterwards, I'm a little surprised that he didn't say anything sooner to Sebe. I respect that AJ wanted to stick it out b/c restarting games over and over is a pain in the ass.... but if you don't know the guy that well, you can't blame him for being a little put off that you waited an entire period before saying something.

So after this long winded explanation (my apologies), I think the decision should be ultimately up to Sebe. He's heard AJ's side of things and if he wants to pick up this game at 4-0, so be it... AJ should understand that. But it should be noted that AJ, as competitive as he is in nhl94, would never bullshit anyone to get out of a goal deficit. If he says that the lag hindered him from playing a fair game, I would believe him.

Like I said, the decision should be up to Sebe... if he feels that it's a Too Bad So Sad situation... fine, i agree with that. But if Sebe feels that AJ isn't bullshitting him, then he should agree to play the game over.

Either way, AJ (and this goes for anyone imo) - in the future, if you're experiencing that lag (especially if you don't know the guy as well as you know guys you play with regularly), pause the game early, drop an IM to the guy that lag is an issue in the game but you still want to play it out for now. That way, you've spearheaded the issue so it's not a surprise if you do indeed have to call the game. To anyone who's read this far, hope that makes sense.

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